Author Topic: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.  (Read 2416 times)

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Offline nospinzone1

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ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Topic Start: May 25, 2007, 01:34:27 PM »


Immigration costs far outweigh labors
By Donald Lambro
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
May 25, 2007


Low-skilled legal immigrants and illegal aliens in the U.S. are receiving much more in federal social welfare benefits than they pay in taxes at a net cost of $89 billion a year to American taxpayers, according to a Heritage Foundation study.
    A cost-benefit analysis by the conservative think tank of the immigration reform bill being debated in the Senate -- which it said would grant what many consider amnesty to illegal aliens and increase the flow of low-skilled workers into the U.S. -- warned that if the legislation becomes law, it would result in "the largest expansion of the welfare state in 30 years."
    "Such proposals would increase poverty in the U.S. in the short and long term and dramatically increase the burden on U.S. taxpayers," said Robert E. Rector, senior research fellow for welfare at Heritage and the co-author of the study with Christine Kim.
    Mr. Rector's findings and conclusions were sharply disputed by another conservative think tank, the Cato Institute, which said that some of his cost estimates were "grossly exaggerated" and that low-skilled workers, especially Hispanics with a strong work ethic, contributed to the U.S. economy's overall growth and prosperity.
    Daniel Griswold, director of Cato's Center for Trade Policy Studies, acknowledged that lower-skilled workers on average "consume more in government services than they pay in taxes." But he pointed to several studies that showed their work in many low-skill industries, from agriculture to construction, also helped expand state economies.
    "The right policy response to the fiscal concerns about immigration is not to artificially suppress labor migration but to control and reallocate government spending," Mr. Griswold said in a recent paper.
    Mr. Rector amassed a significant amount of data drawn from the U.S. census surveys that he said showed how a wave of poorly educated, low-income immigrants and illegals were imposing increasing costs on the country through 60 means-tested aid programs, from welfare to food stamps for immigrant families with children born in this country.
    "Each year, roughly 1.5 million legal and illegal immigrants enter and take up residence in the U.S. This immigrant flow is disproportionately poorly educated because illegal immigration primarily attracts low-skill workers and the legal immigration system favors kinship ties over skill levels," he said.
    According to Heritage, the nation has 4.5 million low-skilled immigrant households containing 15.9 million people, or about 5 percent of the population. About 60 percent of these households were headed by legal immigrants and 40 percent by illegals, the study said.
    Contrary to a belief among many Americans that low-skilled, low-paid immigrants do not pay any taxes, Mr. Rector said, "These families are rarely idle; they consistently work and pay taxes."
     But the taxes they pay seldom cover the costs of the substantial benefits they receive, he said.
    In fiscal 2004, "the average low-skill immigrant household received $30,160 in direct benefits, means-test benefits, education and population-based services from all levels of government," he said. In return, however, these households on average paid only $10,573 in taxes that year.
    Mr. Rector said the solution is to "reduce the costs of low-skill immigration to the taxpayers" by enforcing laws against employing illegal aliens, making a guest-worker program "truly temporary and not a gateway to welfare entitlements," ending birthright citizenship for children of illegal aliens and ruling out any amnesty in the immigration reform bill.
    Several government and free-market think tank studies assembled by Mr. Griswold at the Cato Institute paint a different picture of the impact of low-skilled immigrants in the U.S. economy.
    "Several state-level studies have found that the increased economic activity created by lower-skilled, mostly Hispanic immigrants far exceeds the costs to state and local governments," Mr. Griswold wrote.


Offline Dave B

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #1: May 25, 2007, 03:23:18 PM »
So who are you going to believe? Cato or Heritage?  The results seem mixed. 

This doesnt even take into account how illegals can be paid below minimum wage and save us money on things we buy.

See other thread for my reasoning and analysis of how much illegals cost each household (based on Heritage) and how much they might save us.  Illegals might actually be better than low skilled legals because they probably dont get as many benefits yet work for almost nothing.

Summation of post in other thread:

Illegals cost us at the most 900 dollars per household, more like 500 dollars or even less.  You just have to decide for yourself if you save 500 dollars per year due to cheap illegal sub minimum wage labor.  I think I do.

Note: I'm not sure if they work for less than minimum wage, but I think they must otherwise there is no real advantage to hiring them.  Obviously there is some advantage to hiring them, which I assume is passed along to us.

Offline saltydad

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #2: May 25, 2007, 07:56:24 PM »
I can tell you that as a former manager of a large garden center and nursery, legal Hispanic(I can't refer to other ethnic groups who I had no experience with in this context) immigrants (and maybe illegals whose fake papers passed our muster and so were hired) were the hardest workers I ever had, far surpassing our own "kids" in effort and honesty. By honesty, I'm only referring to the workplace (not working papers, as these may not have been kosher) and the fact that they didn't shirk unpleasant tasks, didn't hide to avoid work, didn't call with transparently false excuses for not coming in to work, etc. They all had taxes deducted. federal and state and social security. If they were illegal, then obviously these taxes were never going to be "credited" to them, and count as surplus tax payments. If we expand my experience with one workplace to the nation, I would want to really look closely at Heritage and Cato's projections.

Offline nospinzone1

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #3: May 25, 2007, 08:06:55 PM »
I WILL NEVER CONDONE BREAKING THE LAW NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY IS INVOLVED. DARN IT, THERE MILLIONS OF CITIZENS OF OTHER COUNTRIES WAITING IN LINE FOR THEIR VISAS...I HAD TO DO IT, MY FAMILY HAD TO DO IT. AS MUCH AS I AM FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION, I DETEST LAWBREAKERS.

Offline nospinzone1

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #4: May 25, 2007, 08:38:16 PM »

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #5: May 25, 2007, 10:32:11 PM »
So who are you going to believe? Cato or Heritage?  The results seem mixed. 

This doesnt even take into account how illegals can be paid below minimum wage and save us money on things we buy.

See other thread for my reasoning and analysis of how much illegals cost each household (based on Heritage) and how much they might save us.  Illegals might actually be better than low skilled legals because they probably dont get as many benefits yet work for almost nothing.

Summation of post in other thread:

Illegals cost us at the most 900 dollars per household, more like 500 dollars or even less.  You just have to decide for yourself if you save 500 dollars per year due to cheap illegal sub minimum wage labor.  I think I do.

Note: I'm not sure if they work for less than minimum wage, but I think they must otherwise there is no real advantage to hiring them.  Obviously there is some advantage to hiring them, which I assume is passed along to us.

You failed to consider that with the amnesty, their benefits and taxes both increase.  With amnesty, the benefits they receive increase 117%, and with the addition of income taxes, taxes go up 77%.  So, the per household is way off in direct benefits.  Then, you need to consider indirect benefits, the deficit, the impact on the US$, the resulting inflation, the impact on legal residents of the inflation on their declining purchasing power, etc. just to get a more true picture on the current year cash flow drain on the economy. You've looked at a very small part of the overall picture.

One year ago today, the US$/Euro was 1.2777.  Today it is 1.3452 - a 5.3% devaluation.  About 20% of that devaluation is directly due to the deficit caused by illegals.  That is 1.06%, which equates to about 6/10 of 1% annual inflation.  But that is .6% per year, which adds up.  Over each legal US Citizens lifespan, the illegals (amnestees?) alone will cause 59% increase in the cost of living above and beyond the inflation we would experience without them.  Then, when you look at just the deficit, and how it alone is responsible for about 2 million Americans being out of work, or about 400,000 well-paying jobs being lost due to illegals, the annual cash flow cost, before social security, the average goes way up to nearly $2000 per household annually.  Then, consider that the average remaining live expectancy is for the illegals is 60 years, and the cost per household, in current dollars is $120,000 over the lifespan of the illegals.  Then, you add in the 59% increase in the cost of living directly attributable to the illegals, that comes out to $191,000 which is still in current dollars as this is due to the increased cost of living above and beyond the natural inflation that would be experience without the illegals.  I think very few households will be pleased to be informed that over their lives, $191,000, in 2007 dollars, will be taken away to support these illegals.

The bottom line, every unskilled worker, where legal or not, whether immigrant or not, is a huge drain on the economy. 

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #6: May 25, 2007, 10:56:25 PM »
I made one pretty huge mistake.  That 59% increase in the cost of living applies to eveything, not just the cost of supporting the illegals.  In today's dollars, that amounts to about another $8.26 Trillion, spread over 114 million households, or $72,500 oer household in 2007 dollars.  The total is about $263,500 per household in 2007 dollars.


Offline nospinzone1

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #7: May 25, 2007, 11:44:41 PM »
ONE THING that bothers me is that the illegals instead of staying home and trying to change their corrupt governments they want to come here and break our laws. I am just as hard on my fellow cuban exiles. If the three million exiles had stayed home and not run cowardly there would be a difference; i dont think the communist dictatorship would have survived so many years. that is one reason i may have a record of getting banned from cuban chat rooms.

Online Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #8: May 26, 2007, 02:26:15 AM »
These numbers are totally extraordinary...what's the source?

You failed to consider that with the amnesty, their benefits and taxes both increase.  With amnesty, the benefits they receive increase 117%, and with the addition of income taxes, taxes go up 77%.  So, the per household is way off in direct benefits.  Then, you need to consider indirect benefits, the deficit, the impact on the US$, the resulting inflation, the impact on legal residents of the inflation on their declining purchasing power, etc. just to get a more true picture on the current year cash flow drain on the economy. You've looked at a very small part of the overall picture.

One year ago today, the US$/Euro was 1.2777.  Today it is 1.3452 - a 5.3% devaluation.  About 20% of that devaluation is directly due to the deficit caused by illegals.  That is 1.06%, which equates to about 6/10 of 1% annual inflation.  But that is .6% per year, which adds up.  Over each legal US Citizens lifespan, the illegals (amnestees?) alone will cause 59% increase in the cost of living above and beyond the inflation we would experience without them.  Then, when you look at just the deficit, and how it alone is responsible for about 2 million Americans being out of work, or about 400,000 well-paying jobs being lost due to illegals, the annual cash flow cost, before social security, the average goes way up to nearly $2000 per household annually.  Then, consider that the average remaining live expectancy is for the illegals is 60 years, and the cost per household, in current dollars is $120,000 over the lifespan of the illegals.  Then, you add in the 59% increase in the cost of living directly attributable to the illegals, that comes out to $191,000 which is still in current dollars as this is due to the increased cost of living above and beyond the natural inflation that would be experience without the illegals.  I think very few households will be pleased to be informed that over their lives, $191,000, in 2007 dollars, will be taken away to support these illegals.

The bottom line, every unskilled worker, where legal or not, whether immigrant or not, is a huge drain on the economy. 

Offline nospinzone1

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #9: May 26, 2007, 06:18:35 AM »
WE SEE DOZENS OF HISPAICS IN EMERGENCY ROOMS. CERTAINLY A LOT OF THEM ARE LEGAL; HOWEVER A LOT OF THEM ARE ILEGALS. WE KNOW THE ILEGALS ARE NOT GOING TO PAY THE BILL. THE OTHERS LIKE THE POPULATION OF AMERICANS AND OTHERS ARE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE EXCESSIVE USE OF ERS WITH NON EMERGENCY ISSUES. WHY....THEY DONT HAVE AN INTERNIST AND FLOOD THE ERS. THIS STRESSES OUT THE DOCTORS AND THE NURSES, (POOR ERICA)

Offline nospinzone1

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #10: May 26, 2007, 06:23:13 AM »


Immigration fraud, continued
By Thomas Sowell
Thomas Sowell
May 26, 2007


Whose problem is the immigration bill in Congress supposed to solve? The country's problem with dangerously porous borders? The illegal immigrants' problem? Or politicians' problems?
    It has been painfully clear for years that the country's problem with insecure borders and floods of foreigners who remain a foreign -- and growing -- part of the American population has the lowest priority of the three. Virtually every step -- even token steps -- that Congress and the administration have taken toward securing the border has been backed into under pressure from the voters.
    The National Guardsmen who were sent to the border but not assigned to guard the border, the 700-mile fence on paper that has become the 2-mile fence in practice, and the existing "tough" penalties for the crime of crossing the border illegally that in practice mean turning the illegal border crossers loose so that they can try, try again -- such actions speak louder than words.
    The new immigration bill that supposedly secures the borders first, before starting to legalize the illegal immigrants, in fact does nothing of the sort.
    It sets up various programs and procedures -- but does not wait to see if they reduce the illegal immigrant flow before taking the irrevocable step of making U.S. citizenship available to 12 million people who came here illegally. This solves the problem of illegal immigrants who want citizenship. The "tough" steps they have to go through allow politicians to say this is not amnesty.
    But, whether these requirements are "tough" or not, and regardless of how they are enforced or not, there is nothing to say the 12 million illegals here have to start the process of becoming citizens. Those who do not choose to become citizens -- which may well be the majority -- face no more prospect of being punished for the crime of entering illegally than they do now. With the focus shifted to getting citizenship, illegal immigrants who just want to stay and make some money without bothering to become part of American society can be forgotten, along with their crime.
    This bill gets the issue off the table and out of the political spotlight. That solves the problem of politicians who want to mollify American voters in general without risking the loss of the Hispanic vote.
    The Hispanic vote can be expected to become larger and larger as the new de facto amnesty can be expected to increase the number of illegal border crossers, just as the previous -- and honestly labeled -- amnesty bill of 1986 led to a quadrupling of the number of illegals. The larger the Hispanic vote becomes, the less seriously are the restrictive features of the immigration bill likely to be enforced.
    The growth of the illegal population is irreversible but the means of controlling the growth of illegals are quite reversible, both de facto through watering down the enforcement of "tough" requirements and de jure through later repeals of requirements deemed too "tough."
    One remarkable aspect of the proposed immigration "reform" is its provisions for cracking down on employers who hire illegal immigrants. Employers are to be punished for not detecting and excluding illegal immigrants, when the government itself is derelict in doing so. Employers not only lack expertise in law enforcement, they can be sued for "discrimination" by any of the armies of lawyers who make such lawsuits their lucrative specialty.
    But no penalties are likely to be enforced against state and local politicians who openly declare "sanctuary" for illegal immigrants. Officials sworn to uphold the law instead forbid the police to report the illegal status of immigrants to federal officials when these illegals are arrested for other crimes.
    This is perfectly consistent for a bill that seeks above all to solve politicians' problems, not the country's.
     
    Thomas Sowell is a nationally syndicated columnist.



Offline kimnat

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #12: May 26, 2007, 09:56:55 AM »
Wow!  Incredible info.  And nospin, Thomas Sowell is a very intelligent and well versed man!  I always pay heed when I see something from him and Walter Williams.

Offline nospinzone1

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #13: May 26, 2007, 10:35:33 AM »
Wow!  Incredible info.  And nospin, Thomas Sowell is a very intelligent and well versed man!  I always pay heed when I see something from him and Walter Williams.

I AGREE. NOT LONG ago I emailed Colbert King, Courtland Miloy and Eugene Robinson and asked them this question. Being born black means that automatically you have to be an ultra liberal democrat? Robinson and Miloy did not reply. Colbert King, who I regard as a real good columnist, got pissed at me for posing the question. I thought it was a legitimate question.

Offline Dave B

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #14: May 27, 2007, 12:17:36 PM »
Natsaddict,

That is quite an impressive list of numbers and sources and will take me hours to digest. Which I may or may not have.  An initial glance leads me to believe that it is lots of percents of a percent until finally a seemingly large precent of something is presented. Then it is summed ove 60 years, which it a long time, to come to a seemingly large number, which may essentially just be a drop in the bucket of something. 

I'm not completely discrediting what you have typed but the initial report that I analyzed is a primary effect and I come to the conclusion that the negative primary effect of illegals is not that great, even when numbers like 90 billion dollars are thrown around. 

All the deficit and inflation stuff are secondary and tertiary effects, which i doubt are as close to as great as the initial tax deficit numbers mentioned, but numbers can be massaged to come out with some pretty big numbers.

Illegals might cost us money, I get that.  If they do, it is not that much in the whole grand scheme of things to warrant the amount of attention and passion that it gets.  Its just an easy and visible problem to pick on.

The crux of your argument seems to be built on the .6% inflation that is atrributable to them.  I doubt that number is able to account for some inflation that they save us by keeping costs down. 

There are many more things costing us money, and most of them are legal citzens not contributing to society economically or socially.  Whether or not the positives of illegals makes up for the negatives remains to be seen. The negatives of poor legal citizens certainly outweigh the benefits.  Which is why I think that keeping people here ILLEGALLY might have some merit.

When you say that 400,000 well paying jobs are going to illegals, I really wonder what the definition of well-paying is.  If it really is a well paying job and illegals are doing it for dirt cheap, I certainly wont complain when I dont have to pay as much for whatever labor said person performed for me.  There are two sides to everything.

If you are a citzen and have been here for generations and havent been able to advance yourself to a point where you can't be replaced by an uneducated non english speaking illegal alien, I'm sorry, you had your chance, time to see what someone else can do with it.

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #15: May 27, 2007, 04:07:29 PM »
Those 400,000 jobs did not go to illegals.  They are jobs lost, generally overseas, as a result of the illegals direct contribution to the deficit.  Along with those jobs, the taxes to both the employer and employee are lost.  The tax burden to cover those employees increases.  Finally, those employees would spend their income, most importantly their disposable income, which would be used to pay some other employee, who would again spend and benefit another employee, etc.  Until Greenspan's November 2005 decision (fiasco) to stop disclosing the money supply starting in March of last year, this turnover was running at about 12-14 times a year.  Now we don't know, but 12-14 times is the historical range.  In short, the cost to the economy of losing a $50,000 job is actually $600,000 ($50,000 * 12).  However, the true impact is significantly less.

Those 400,000 skilled manufacturing jobs generally pay better than the service sector jobs where the laid off unemployed manufacturing workers end up.  So, while there is a job lost, there is a lesser paying job replacing it (underemployment as opposed to unemployment).  So, while the true impact has a average base closer to $10,000 - $15,000 per lost manufacturing.  Still, at $10,000 the impact is $120,000, or about $48 billion to the economy and about $20 billion in taxes (and this is just payroll taxes and taxes the employees would pay, not the employer's income  taxes).  Those taxes alone cost another $175 per household.   In addition, there is a new tax burden for those laid off, and additional medical cost covered by the public for those who have lost health insurance.

The benefit for reduced costs, from what I've seen, is having little impact on prices.  While my research on the situation is limited to south Florida, where the vast majority of illegals are be employed by companies in the construction sector dodging payroll taxes (these foregone taxes are not included in my earlier calculations).  The others significant industries are home services (maid services and lawn care) and hospitality, in which there is very little, if any, price benefit to the consumer.  A further impact is illegals depress wages to those legally employed in those industries.  Even if there were a price benefit to the consumer, the reduction in purchasing power and taxes for the legal employees would hurt the economy again (by the same factor of at least 12 as noted above).

As for the .6% inflation, that currently comes to about $80 billion annual cost to the economy through inflation, or about another $700 annual cost per household on top of the tax costs.

Just using the tax drain and inflation, and ignoring the foregone economic growth/benefits, if there are the highest estimate I've ever seen of 20 million illegals in order to provide the lowest possible result,  every last illegal man, woman, and child would still have to provide an annual consumer savings of $11,400 just to break even.

The cost of education has grown enormously.  Unlike other industries, education is not as open to enjoy efficiencies and economies of scale.  The cost has therefore gone up much faster than inflation (roughly twice as fast), and this is one issue that has been ignored by the Feds since it was first brought to their attention as a political issue 30 years ago.  Now they act surprised and confused by how fast the cost of education has risen.  This eliminates the opportunities for some, and makes the cost/payback period much greater for others.  The return in terms of incremental lifetime earnings/cost of college has dropped more than 50% the past 20 years, and will likely continue to do so at the same pace.  The increased cost of college, and the declining "return on investment," makes vocational types of jobs the best/only choice for many.  This will increasingly be true in the future.  I see no reason to exacerbate this situation in the future by bringing in more illegals to compete for the vocational jobs in which speaking English is often not requisite.

Offline Dave B

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #16: May 27, 2007, 06:01:02 PM »
Quick reply for now:

I'm not saying open the borders and let people come in.  I'm just saying that illegals are not simply people sitting on their couches eating prescription drugs and using food stamps for toilet paper. 

I'm willing to entertain the idea of letting them remain illegal and not pay income tax so they also dont collect all the services that poor citizens do.  From some other article, poor people pay 10k in taxes and get 30k in benefits.  You said that illegals, if they were to become citzens, would see benefits increase 117% to what I will infer is 30k. Meaning that as illegal aliens they get about 14k in benefits. They pay 0 taxes, so their deficit is 14k, as opposed to the 20k deficit which for each legal poor person.  Further, there is no saving from employing legal citzens, as marginal as that might be.

People need to stop being all high and mighty about being citzens and paying taxes.  Citzenship is not the issue.  The issue is some people are poor and need to be supported by the government. 

As an aside, if we are so overrun with non english speaking poor illegal aliens, how come I have never had an bum with the slightest hint of an accent ask me for change. And believe me, my sample size is huge.  What are the reasons for this: I dont really know. Perhaps they work hard and have a strong sense of family, so if they face some sort of challenge that would bumify them, somebody helps them out. 

This is not an issue worthy of the attention and grandstanding it receives.  On the surface it sounds legit to bash these people as drains on the economy and say they are taking our jobs, when this type of hysteria is just trolling for cheap votes in much the same way that Fenty would run around here yammering about how the people of DC are building a playground for billionaires.

Offline Dave B

  • Posts: 6013
Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #17: May 27, 2007, 06:19:35 PM »
The jobs are not leaving due to only inflation. Thats a small part of it.  The are leaving because engineers in india dont have nearly the quality of life to support that americans do and they work for almost peanuts. Its not just exchange rate

Offline NatsAddict

  • Posts: 4095
Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #18: May 27, 2007, 06:23:50 PM »
The jobs are not leaving due to only inflation. Thats a small part of it.  The are leaving because engineers in india dont have nearly the quality of life to support that americans do and they work for almost peanuts. Its not just exchange rate

It's actually due more to our tax code than anything. 

Offline nospinzone1

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #19: May 27, 2007, 09:15:07 PM »
"I'm not saying open the borders and let people come in.  I'm just saying that illegals are not simply people sitting on their couches eating prescription drugs and using food stamps for toilet paper.

REALLY? WHAT ABOUT THE THOUSANDS OF GANG MEMBERS, THE DRUG DEALERS, THE PROSTITUTES AND THEIR PIMPS?

Offline nospinzone1

  • Posts: 3083
Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #20: May 27, 2007, 09:47:24 PM »

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: PiedType43@aol.com
To: dugans7@verizon.net
Sent: Mon, 21 May 2007 21:46:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Maxine's  answer to singingour National Anthem in Spanish

 
 
 




?
Yep!  I passed it  on...

 
I'm  sorry, but after hearing they want 
to  sing OUR National Anthem in Spanish - enough is  enough!
 
NEVER  did they sing it in Italian, 
Japanese,  Polish, Irish-Celtic, German, Portuguese,  Greek, French, or
any
other language because of  immigration.
It  was  written by Francis Scott Key and should be sung  word for word
the
way it 
was  written. The news broadcasts 
gave  a translation that's NOT even close 
Sorry  if this offends anyone, but this  is 

THIS  IS MY  COUNTRY!
Do  YOU -  sing MY
 National  Anthem in YOUR COUNTRY 
IN  ENGLISH ? ? ?
 
 
And,  because I make this statement 
DOES  NOT mean I'm against  immigration!!!
 
YOU  ARE WELCOME HERE IN MY  COUNTRY.
 
Welcome  to come through like 
everyone  else has.
 
Get  a sponsor !
Get  a place to lay your head  !
Get a  job !
Live by  OUR rules  !
Pay  YOUR  taxes  !
 
And 
LEARN  THE LANGUAGE 
LIKE  ALL OTHER IMMIGRANTS HAVE 
IN  THE PAST!!!
 
AND  PLEASE DON'T DEMAND THAT WE HAND OVER  OUR  LIFETIME  SAVINGS OF
SOCIAL 
SECURITY  FUNDS  TO  YOU
TO  MAKE UP FOR  ''YOUR''  LOSSES.
 

If  you don't want to forward this 
for  fear of offending someone,  then
YOU'RE  PART OF THE  PROBLEM!


When  will AMERICAN'S STOP giving away THEIR  RIGHTS??? 

We've  gone so far the other way, 
bent  over backwards not  to
offend  anyone.
 
But  it seems no one cares about the AMERICAN 
that's being  offended!
 

WAKE  UP  America!!! 

If  you agree - pass this  on... 

if  you don't agree - delete it ! !  !
 

Offline Kenz aFan

  • Posts: 5433
Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #21: May 27, 2007, 09:51:15 PM »
REALLY? WHAT ABOUT THE THOUSANDS OF GANG MEMBERS, THE DRUG DEALERS, THE PROSTITUTES AND THEIR PIMPS?

I absolutely do not understand you, so you'll have to help me understand. Are you saying that gang members, drug dealers, prostitutes and pimps do nothing but sit around all day, or that they use food stamps to buy toilet paper?

Nospin, you need to make up your mind, in one thread you praise everything about America, in yet another you praise it's troops for their efforts, and here, after having painted a beautiful picture of what America is all about, you choose to pick at that image like a child would a sore.

My friend, don't forget that you live in one of the best countries in the world. When a person loves their country, they do so unconditionally, the good, the bad and the ugly are all parts of the country they love, because it is just that, their country. Of course, they might disagree with some of its policies, but that doesn't lessen the love they have for their country, nor should it.

You are lucky, you are a citizen of a country I would be proud to be a citizen of. Don't get me wrong, I love Canada, but a person has room to love more than one country and all the bad and ugly that might come with it.

Offline nospinzone1

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Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #22: May 27, 2007, 09:57:11 PM »
your last post beffudles me....where have you seen anything by me running down our country? do you need new prescription glasses?

Offline Kenz aFan

  • Posts: 5433
Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #23: May 27, 2007, 10:00:24 PM »
your last post beffudles me....where have you seen anything by me running down our country? do you need new prescription glasses?

SINCE YOU ALREADY REPLIED, I DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE THE TEXT IN MY OTHER MESSAGE TO ALL CAPS...

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BEFUDDLES YOU, BECAUSE IF YOU TOOK THE TIME TO READ YOUR OWN POSTS, YOU WOULD SEE THAT YOU INSINUATE MORE THAN YOU TYPE. AND TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT MY GLASSES, THE ANSWER IS YES.

Offline nospinzone1

  • Posts: 3083
Re: ECONOMICS AND THE ILEGALS.
« Reply #24: May 27, 2007, 11:09:00 PM »
IT SEEMS TO BE THAT ALL I HAVE EVER INSINUATED IS THAT I LOVE THIS COUNTRY AND THAT I DO NOT LIKE BREAKING THE LAW WHICH IS WHAT THE ILLEGALS DO. BEING IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY IS BREAKING THE LAW.

I HAVE GONE BACK AND REREAD THE THREAD AND I DONT SEE ANYWHERE WHERE I RAG ON THE UNITED STATES. I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THAT WE ARE THE MOST GENEROUS NATION EVER TO EXIST. IF YOU COULD JUST SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE RAGGED ON OUR COUNTRY, PLEASE POST IT.