Author Topic: Fire Davey Martinez (assuming it's too late for an annulment)  (Read 4621 times)

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Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Jesus, I wasn't expecting so much negativity around this hire. Dave Martinez helped the Devil Rays get to the World Series and the Cubs win the World Series - surely he could get the Nationals to the NLCS.

What negativity? There's one moronic troll who knows nothing about baseball doing all of the nagging and everyone else seems fairly content.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Love to have been able to see those negotiations. It must have been torture for the Lerners.

Three year deal with an option for a 4th.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Love this deal.

Jesus, I wasn't expecting so much negativity around this hire. Dave Martinez helped the Devil Rays get to the World Series and the Cubs win the World Series - surely he could get the Nationals to the NLCS.

Offline imref

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Hopefully he’s not manny acta 2.0

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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I love how PowerTroller insinuated that Martinez will struggle to manage the Nats' young star players and then posted an excerpt that demonstrates that he had an excellent working relationship with the Rays' young stars.  Brilliant!

Offline Ray D

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What negativity? There's one moronic troll who knows nothing about baseball doing all of the nagging and everyone else seems fairly content.

Am I the moronic troll who knows nothing about baseball? Either that or there are two.

Offline dcpatti

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Love to have been able to see those negotiations. It must have been torture for the Lerners.

Eh, owners got learning curves too, maybe they’re finally figuring their crap out. Look how long it took Mikey Taylor to figure it out and all he has to do is hit a ball.

Offline Ray D

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Gotta start somewhere to get to the top.
The premise behind letting Dusty go is that we have to "get to the top" next season (where "get to the top" means at least get past the NLDS).  Letting Dusty go and hiring Martinez implies the following premises(1) : Dusty is not win  likely to win the NLDS next season; (2) Martinez is; and (3) Martinez is certain to win the division.  I don't buy any of these three and particularly the third.
Were rolling the dice.  I think with Dusty we would win the division AND the NLDS in 2018.  I think with Martinez, we are likely to not even win the division.   But let' say for argument sake that we are destined to win the division.  We wait all regular season until the end so  we can play a best of five series in order to validate this move. Maybe we'll win the NLDS.  But suppose we dont'?  then  what? Do we fire Martinez?  No? Why not?

Offline Baseball is Life

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I like the three-year deal with an option. Maybe he can bring some stability to the position, which we will be important given that 2019 might be a transition year with Harper and Murphy maybe both leaving.

Offline Ray D

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Eh, owners got learning curves too, maybe they’re finally figuring their crap out. Look how long it took Mikey Taylor to figure it out and all he has to do is hit a ball.
According to Werth, hitting a ball is alot harder than figuring things out.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Am I the moronic troll who knows nothing about baseball? Either that or there are two.

No, you're just completely f'ing insane.

Offline Baseball is Life

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The premise behind letting Dusty go is that we have to "get to the top" next season (where "get to the top" means at least get past the NLDS).  Letting Dusty go and hiring Martinez implies the following premises(1) : Dusty is not win  likely to win the NLDS next season; (2) Martinez is; and (3) Martinez is certain to win the division.  I don't buy any of these three and particularly the third.
Were rolling the dice.  I think with Dusty we would win the division AND the NLDS in 2018.  I think with Martinez, we are likely to not even win the division.   But let' say for argument sake that we are destined to win the division.  We wait all regular season until the end so  we can play a best of five series in order to validate this move. Maybe we'll win the NLDS.  But suppose we dont'?  then  what? Do we fire Martinez?  No? Why not?

He is not getting fired after one year no matter what happens. This is a long-term hire. That's why he got three years and an option.

Offline Ray D

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He is not getting fired after one year no matter what happens.
It was a rhetorical question: why does he get to remain as manager if he doesn't take us to the next lever, when Dusty was let go for that reason?

Offline Baseball is Life

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It was a rhetorical question: why does he get to remain as manager if he doesn't take us to the next lever, when Dusty was let go for that reason?

Dusty got two cracks at it. Martinez will get at least two cracks at it.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Dustry got two cracks at it. Martinez will get at least two cracks at it.

Dusty got two cracks at it here.

If it were me, I would have renewed Dusty despite his post-season mistakes. Given that Dusty didn't get rehired, I think Martinez is about the best the FO could have done.

Offline bluestreak

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Is Martínez bilingual? That is one definite advantage I could see over what he Nats had previously.

Offline Smithian

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Dusty got two cracks at it here.

If it were me, I would have renewed Dusty despite his post-season mistakes. Given that Dusty didn't get rehired, I think Martinez is about the best the FO could have done.
My thoughts exactly. Wouldn't have fired Baker, but they did and this seems like a good and correct hire. If they surround him with a strong staff then I'll have no complaints.

This team is ready to win now. The tougher part will be the reload next offseason.

Offline dcpatti

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Is Martínez bilingual? That is one definite advantage I could see over what he Nats had previously.

Castillo is reporting that he is bilingual.

Offline Smithian

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Is Martínez bilingual? That is one definite advantage I could see over what he Nats had previously.
I imagine any major league manager knows some Spanish. I remember reading an article once that mentioned Riggleman using Spanish with a young Hispanic player.

Offline bluestreak

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I imagine any major league manager knows some Spanish. I remember reading an article once that mentioned Riggleman using Spanish with a young Hispanic player.

That may be true. But knowing some Spanish and being truly bilingual are completely different things.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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I thought Dusty learned spanish. Could be wrong.
Castillo is reporting that he is bilingual.

Offline varoadking

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Offline Mattionals

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There is a lot to unpack here. Let's begin from the top.

Davey Johnson is brought on to helm a young team and bring them from being regular season losers to being contenders. He is an old guy who was "new school" way back when but largely managed like a manager from the 80s would. He has a two year deal and made it clear that once that deal was up, he wanted to ride off into the sunset of retirement.

Fast forward to the offseason before 2014. The Nats make the playoffs for the first time but miss the mark in 2013 due to injuries mostly. Davey rides off into the sunset and the Nats openly interview managerial candidates who are more "new school" because that is where it looks like successful teams are headed. They seemingly felt that leadership qualities were less important than in game management and let Mike Rizzo hire his buddy Matt Williams. Williams gets a two year deal with two option years after that, reportedly.

Fast forward to the offseason before 2016. Matt Williams, who inherited the majority of the coaching staff of Davey Johnson, is fired because he was awful with managing personalities and was much too cold to his players. Players were more comfortable talking to the old guard and Matt Williams did a great job in dividing himself from his players. His managerial ability was also in question, as he wasn't the SABRmetrician that was originally sold to the team upon his hiring. After a disappointing season where the clubhouse dissolved, he Nats again openly interview managerial candidates but this time put an emphasis on prior success and being a "player's manager". The two finalists are Bud Black and Dusty Baker. Baker has a better track record, but has never been good with X's and O's in decisive games. Bud Black is extended an offer he felt was "low ball" and does not take the job. The offer goes to Baker, who takes a 2 year, 4 Million contract with no option years.

Fast Forward again to the offseason before 2018. Dusty Baker is NOT EXTENDED. He brought back to back division victories and back to back first round exits. He was well liked by the players, but those same questions about his managerial ability ultimately caused him to not be retained beyond the initial contract. There was always this possiblity and although the ownership handled his dismissal very poorly with timing, Dusty Baker not being retained should not have come as much of a shock as it did. The Nats, again, openly interview managerial candidates and hire Dave Martinez, the right hand man of Joe Maddon for years who has been the defensive positioning coach and lineup creator. He is well respected by players and other coaches alike.

These are the facts as we see them. Unless I forgot something, please correct me.

The major gripes seem to be that people think Dusty is less of a gamble than anyone else but fail to see that Dusty is such a known commodity now that you can almost pinpoint when he will "outmanage himself" in a big game. It's more of a gamble to HOPE that Dusty figures out how to get over that hump than it is to throw in the chips on a less known manager. Sure, things can go pretty wrong, but this hire is more unanimously liked than Williams was, and there is a track record of young managers with little experience doing well.

Let's not say the sky is falling until it is.

Offline Smithian

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The Nats just hired an experienced bench coach from a championship organization. A well regarded name in baseball. This is probably the safest, easiest hire. Someone may have preferred someone else, but hard to criticize this move.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Just saw that Martinez goes by freaking Davey! Can this get any worse?