Author Topic: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees  (Read 917 times)

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Offline welch

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Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Topic Start: October 27, 2017, 10:20:47 AM »
Why? Still a puzzle, but the NYT baseball writers are more serious than others in New York.

First account in NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/sports/baseball/joe-girardi-fired-yankees.html?action=click&contentCollection=Baseball&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

Quote
Girardi’s unyielding manner — be it his rigorous preparation or his sometimes-contentious back and forth with the news media — was reflected in that run, in which the Yankees twice rallied from two-games-to-none deficits in postseason series only to ultimately fall short.

But it was during the postseason run that Girardi also came under fierce criticism for his managing. It grew out of the Yankees’ Game 2 loss in the division series against the Cleveland Indians, a game in which Girardi declined to ask for a replay review of a hit-by-pitch call — a decision that opened the door for an Indians comeback.

Girardi, who made a rare admission the next day — “I screwed up,” he said repeatedly at a news conference — was afforded a reprieve when the Yankees rallied to win the next three games to advance to the A.L.C.S. against the Houston Astros.

Still, the withering criticism that was directed at him after the Game 2 blunder seemed to affect him deeply and, for the first time, raised the notion that his decade in the Bronx had worn on him.

And Saturday night, after the Yankees were eliminated by the Astros, Girardi had an almost fatalistic tone as he discussed his baseball future. “I’ve had 10 great years here,” he said. “I feel extremely blessed. God has been good to me, and we’ll see what the future holds.”

Quote
But at a time when the ability to relate to players is becoming more valued, Girardi may have had some difficulties on that front. He became so frustrated this season over catcher Gary Sanchez’s inattentiveness in blocking pitches that he publicly called him out, a rarity for Girardi.

And:

The Yankees Had a Steady Winner in Girardi. Now They Want More.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/sports/baseball/yankees-girardi.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fsports&action=click&contentCollection=sports&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=sectionfront&_r=0

Quote
It is clear, though, that the Yankees viewed this moment as something of a pivot point. After coming so close to the World Series, they now expect to get there, and win, within the term of the next manager’s contract. Girardi took this group to the edge of a title, and now his successor — they hope — will haul it over the top.

Quote
To Cashman, Girardi’s style might not mesh well with a team of players in their 20s. The veterans Girardi managed for most of his tenure, essentially, were fully formed major leaguers before they played for him. A younger group may respond better to a manager who projects less tension and more outward calm.

In the A.L.C.S., the Yankees got a close look at a manager who does that, one with renowned communication skills: A. J. Hinch of the Astros, who recovered from three losses at Yankee Stadium to take the final two games in Houston. Hinch’s Astros also eliminated the Yankees in the 2015 A.L. wild card game, the Yankees’ only other playoff appearance in the last five years.

“He just believes in every single one of us, and he shows you that,” Alex Bregman, the Astros’ 23-year-old third baseman, said on Thursday. “He shows that he has confidence in everybody on our roster. He’s a motivator and a guy that you want to play for — a guy that you want to run through a wall for.”

Quote
Yet over Girardi’s tenure, managers increasingly became extensions of the front office, and the Yankees, with their increasing emphasis on analytics, were no different.


Online Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #1: October 27, 2017, 11:34:15 AM »
They have the same autoimmune disorder as the Nats.

Online UMDNats

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #2: October 27, 2017, 12:30:52 PM »
It's not really a puzzle. It has become extremely clear that Girardi and Cashman clashed this year and there was concern Girardi's management style didn't fit the direction of the organization - very valid complaints. Girardi is a very good manager and is not a great fit for the future of the Yankees. He'd be better off in a place like DC with more veteran players.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #3: October 27, 2017, 12:37:52 PM »
It's not really a puzzle. It has become extremely clear that Girardi and Cashman clashed this year and there was concern Girardi's management style didn't fit the direction of the organization - very valid complaints. Girardi is a very good manager and is not a great fit for the future of the Yankees. He'd be better off in a place like DC with more veteran players.
I don't know the specifics but what did he do to show he couldn't handle young players? Was it his fault Judge had a slump in the second half and then again in the playoffs? I think many veteran managers would have pulled him from the lineup.

Online UMDNats

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #4: October 27, 2017, 12:48:51 PM »
I don't know the specifics but what did he do to show he couldn't handle young players? Was it his fault Judge had a slump in the second half and then again in the playoffs? I think many veteran managers would have pulled him from the lineup.

I'm not around the team anymore obviously but it can be a lot of things. Girardi's communication can leave some to be desired, especially with younger guys. Veterans are left to their own devices a lot.

Mark Teixeira:

Quote
"Everyone loves Joe, everyone respects Joe, he is a good manager, he is a good man," said Teixeira, who now works for ESPN. "But with baseball the way it is played today and the need for a manager to be a better communicator and communicate with the front office the reasoning for doing things and to be a little bit more relaxed — especially in a place like New York, where the pressure is everywhere. He just wasn't the best man for the job anymore."
...
"The communication and the highs and lows of the season weren't Joe's best assets and he will probably tell you that. He manages every game like it's Game 7."

The Yankees are a very, very big analytics team. The players are surrounded by it, and it drives the management's decision-making oftentimes. Girardi can still be old-school, rigid in his mindset. He's an intense guy, fierce competitor. Like I said, good manager. Very good. But sometimes you need a more laid-back guy in a place like NYC where players already have the weight of the world on them.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #5: October 27, 2017, 12:53:37 PM »
I'm not around the team anymore obviously but it can be a lot of things. Girardi's communication can leave some to be desired, especially with younger guys. Veterans are left to their own devices a lot.

Mark Teixeira:

The Yankees are a very, very big analytics team. The players are surrounded by it, and it drives the management's decision-making oftentimes. Girardi can still be old-school, rigid in his mindset. He's an intense guy, fierce competitor. Like I said, good manager. Very good. But sometimes you need a more laid-back guy in a place like NYC where players already have the weight of the world on them.

Sounds like he treats them like adults. I can see him as a former player getting upset with Sanchez if he viewed he was not takin instruction seriously.  He held the job for a long time. Seems weird to me that they left him in place after some non playoff years as the young guys were coming in. And now let him go after they overachieved. Sounds like Cashman changed his mind.

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #6: October 27, 2017, 01:05:26 PM »
Sounds like he treats them like adults. I can see him as a former player getting upset with Sanchez if he viewed he was not takin instruction seriously.  He held the job for a long time. Seems weird to me that they left him in place after some non playoff years as the young guys were coming in. And now let him go after they overachieved. Sounds like Cashman changed his mind.

No, this was the first year the young guys were up all year and the core of the team, so it was overall the first exposure to that environment. 2016 at the end of the year had a little of it, but this was the first time in Joe's tenure he had to deal with young guys as the most important players at almost every position.

There's been rumblings of friction between the front office and Girardi for a while. Cashman definitely wants someone with a different temperament/more front office-friendly in there.


Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #7: October 27, 2017, 01:09:31 PM »
No, this was the first year the young guys were up all year and the core of the team, so it was overall the first exposure to that environment. 2016 at the end of the year had a little of it, but this was the first time in Joe's tenure he had to deal with young guys as the most important players at almost every position.

There's been rumblings of friction between the front office and Girardi for a while. Cashman definitely wants someone younger/more front office-friendly in there.
Just strange to me if there was friction that he did not make a change sooner.

Online UMDNats

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #8: October 27, 2017, 01:12:08 PM »
Just strange to me if there was friction that he did not make a change sooner.

From what I've gathered it boiled over this year. In the past you kind of brush it off as part of the job, but eventually you look long-term and wonder if he's the guy. Also his contract was up this year, whereas if you want to make a move last year it probably makes more sense ("we're rebuilding!") but looks worse overall ("yankees fire girardi"). so the timing allowed Cashman to wait it out.

Cashman has earned the benefit of the doubt IMO.

Offline imref

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #9: October 27, 2017, 01:21:27 PM »
There have been a few articles today saying the same basic thing: Girardi is too old school, doesn’t embrace analytics enough, and doesn’t communicate well with the younger players.  I still think he’d be a good fit here. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #10: October 27, 2017, 02:02:01 PM »
From what I've gathered it boiled over this year. In the past you kind of brush it off as part of the job, but eventually you look long-term and wonder if he's the guy. Also his contract was up this year, whereas if you want to make a move last year it probably makes more sense ("we're rebuilding!") but looks worse overall ("yankees fire girardi"). so the timing allowed Cashman to wait it out.

Cashman has earned the benefit of the doubt IMO.
Makes you wonder how he would fit with the Nats after 2018 once they start relying on Robles, Taylor, Turner, Difo maybe, Soto (whoever isn't traded).  At that point, Taylor / Turner will be in their career primes with 3+ seasons of experience, so not exactly newbs, but still, it'll be a younger core than 2018.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #11: October 27, 2017, 08:56:08 PM »
There have been a few articles today saying the same basic thing: Girardi is too old school, doesn’t embrace analytics enough, and doesn’t communicate well with the younger players.  I still think he’d be a good fit here.
Have to chuckle; made the playoffs with several young everyday players.  Upset the favored Indians and almost upset the favored Astros with all those flaws. 

Offline welch

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #12: October 28, 2017, 01:00:02 PM »
Consensus of baseball writers and fans: a modern manager needs

(1) Analytics

(2) Communications with the press, and, of course, general manager and owners

(3) Support for and from the players, especially young players

Question:

(1) How does analytics help a manager? A GM, sure, but does a manager need analytics to make in-game decisions, or to decide which slumping player will, soon, break out? Would analytics have helped Dusty Baker decide whether to start Michael A. Taylor and Brian Goodwin, and how long to stick with them? Girardi continued to play Aaron Judge after the All-Star game, chose among some up-and-down starting pitchers, picked the spots to use the grumpy Dellin Betances. Where would analytics have changed his thinking?

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #13: October 28, 2017, 09:37:49 PM »
Consensus of baseball writers and fans: a modern manager needs

(1) Analytics

(2) Communications with the press, and, of course, general manager and owners

(3) Support for and from the players, especially young players

Question:

(1) How does analytics help a manager? A GM, sure, but does a manager need analytics to make in-game decisions, or to decide which slumping player will, soon, break out? Would analytics have helped Dusty Baker decide whether to start Michael A. Taylor and Brian Goodwin, and how long to stick with them? Girardi continued to play Aaron Judge after the All-Star game, chose among some up-and-down starting pitchers, picked the spots to use the grumpy Dellin Betances. Where would analytics have changed his thinking?
Analytics get used in games all the time.

Offline welch

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #14: October 29, 2017, 11:55:43 AM »
Analytics get used in games all the time.

In what way?

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #15: October 29, 2017, 03:51:53 PM »
In what way?
How and when to employ shifts, is a major example. All analytics is an advanced usage of numbers to make decisions. And numbers are used to make decisions throughout the game.

Offline welch

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #16: October 29, 2017, 05:06:22 PM »
How and when to employ shifts, is a major example. All analytics is an advanced usage of numbers to make decisions. And numbers are used to make decisions throughout the game.

How would analytics determine a shift? If a left-handed hitter cannot to left, like Adam LaRoche, or will not, like Ted Williams, then it should not take advanced analysis of data to call a shift.  There might be counter-information, such as how hard a pitcher throws, or whether the pitcher has control over slower pitches, LH or RH pitcher, runners on base.

Over a season, a good hitter (with a good eye and patience) might reach base safely about 40% of the time, but on-base percentage seems not to predict what will happen in any one at-bat. How do analytics help during an inning?

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #17: October 29, 2017, 05:34:16 PM »
How would analytics determine a shift? If a left-handed hitter cannot to left, like Adam LaRoche, or will not, like Ted Williams, then it should not take advanced analysis of data to call a shift.  There might be counter-information, such as how hard a pitcher throws, or whether the pitcher has control over slower pitches, LH or RH pitcher, runners on base.

Over a season, a good hitter (with a good eye and patience) might reach base safely about 40% of the time, but on-base percentage seems not to predict what will happen in any one at-bat. How do analytics help during an inning?
Analytics measures just about everything. Where guys hit balls. how they hit in specific counts. How they handle different types of pitches. All that information is useful in games.  If you're doing it right, your pitcher and catcher should be working in concert with your defensive alignment. All of which happens in game situations. But you're right, any single at bat, anything can happen.

Offline Count Walewski

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Re: Joe Girardi dropped by Yankees
« Reply #18: October 30, 2017, 08:25:17 PM »
Analytics measures just about everything. Where guys hit balls. how they hit in specific counts. How they handle different types of pitches. All that information is useful in games.  If you're doing it right, your pitcher and catcher should be working in concert with your defensive alignment. All of which happens in game situations. But you're right, any single at bat, anything can happen.

This is why Joe Maddon teams employ micro-shifts for each individual batter in the opposing lineup.