Author Topic: Rendon or Murphy for MVP  (Read 1226 times)

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Offline WVUGold

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #25: September 07, 2017, 08:36:32 AM »
Imagine if Stanton played in Denver he'd hit 80 HR min

Offline spidernat

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #26: September 07, 2017, 09:13:12 AM »
Maris's 61. The only one that counts in a lot of people's mind.



even that one was disputed because he played a longer season than Ruth.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #27: September 07, 2017, 09:47:36 AM »
Maris's 61. The only one that counts in a lot of people's mind.

Ruth's 60.

Seriously though, they're all tainted.  All those above 61 are tainted for well-known reasons.  This season, it'll be the juiced ball.  With Maris, it was (1) addition of two expansion teams with AA pitchers that he faced a total of 36 games; (2) additional 8 games; (3) short fence (297); (4) most important, he hit ahead of Mantle.  Not that I buy into any of that (nor do I care) but that's what the Ruth fans offered.  And with Ruth, it was the short fence.


Offline Ray D

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #29: September 07, 2017, 09:57:17 AM »
Mike and Mike, those two idiots, had a long discussion this morning about NL MVP (on their stupid Love it or Shove it segment).  Not a word about any Nats player. 

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #30: September 07, 2017, 10:19:43 AM »
Ruth's 60.

Seriously though, they're all tainted.  All those above 61 are tainted for well-known reasons.  This season, it'll be the juiced ball.  With Maris, it was (1) addition of two expansion teams with AA pitchers that he faced a total of 36 games; (2) additional 8 games; (3) short fence (297); (4) most important, he hit ahead of Mantle.  Not that I buy into any of that (nor do I care) but that's what the Ruth fans offered.  And with Ruth, it was the short fence.

If you’re going to disregard records because of steroids or whatever, then you may as well disregard Ruth’s as well, because he didn’t play against the best players, because he played in all-white baseball. Every Era has its issues.

Offline spidernat

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #31: September 07, 2017, 10:23:57 AM »
If you’re going to disregard records because of steroids or whatever, then you may as well disregard Ruth’s as well, because he didn’t play against the best players, because he played in all-white baseball. Every Era has its issues.



:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:



He may not have played against some of the best players who played in the Negro League at the time but to say this is just plain stupid. There were plenty of great players in MLB at the time.


Offline bluestreak

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #33: September 07, 2017, 10:33:49 AM »


:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:



He may not have played against some of the best players who played in the Negro League at the time but to say this is just plain stupid. There were plenty of great players in MLB at the time.

When did I say that there weren’t great players in MLB then? Of course there were. No intelligent person would deny it. But while I can say that I’m relatively certain that almost all of the best baseball players in the world are in MLB, I can say with absolute certainty that was not the case in Ruth’s time. If you don’t think that Ruth hit a couple of homers against a pitcher who wouldn’t have been there if baseball were integrated you’re deluding yourself.

Plus you missed the point of my post. Which is that the whole thing about the “real” HR record is silly. The record is 73.

Offline spidernat

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #34: September 07, 2017, 10:41:02 AM »
When did I say that there weren’t great players in MLB then?




You said he didn't play against the best players. That implies that he played in an inferior league and that the Negro League was the superior league of the two.


If you don’t think that Ruth hit a couple of homers against a pitcher who wouldn’t have been there if baseball were integrated you’re deluding yourself.





I absolutely know this. But the same can be said about the players that were playing in the Negro League.




Offline Ray D

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #35: September 07, 2017, 10:47:38 AM »
If you’re going to disregard records because of steroids or whatever, then you may as well disregard Ruth’s as well, because he didn’t play against the best players, because he played in all-white baseball. Every Era has its issues.
That's why I lost interest in all records, years ago.  They're meaningless to me.

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #36: September 07, 2017, 10:48:14 AM »
You said he didn't play against the best players. That implies that he played in an inferior league and that the Negro League was the superior league of the two.
No it doesn't. It implies that the league was lesser than it could have been, which it was. Not that it was inferior to the Negro Leagues.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #37: September 07, 2017, 11:20:57 AM »

You said he didn't play against the best players. That implies that he played in an inferior league and that the Negro League was the superior league of the two.

If I implied this, I apologize. It is definitely not what I meant. I don’t believe that to be true. What I meant that Ruth did not face many of the best baseball players in the world because they were excluded from MLB. NPB and Cuban players notwithstanding, I believe that almost all of the best baseball players play in MLB. Ruth faced many great players, but he also missed many great ones.

But like I said, this was all just brought up to reiterate that the real record is 73.

Offline spidernat

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #38: September 07, 2017, 11:30:45 AM »
What I meant that Ruth did not face many of the best baseball players in the world



That's not what you said the first time. And if measuring a player's greatness involves the players he played against or didn't play against, which is totally fair, then what does that say about the great players of the Negro League? They not only missed out on playing against the great players of MLB but they also played a lot of their games against teams made up of players who weren't good enough to play in the Negro League.




Offline spidernat

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #39: September 07, 2017, 11:32:53 AM »


But like I said, this was all just brought up to reiterate that the real record is 73.



Because that's the official record. And Ruth's 60 bombs is an official stat. That's all we can go by.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #40: September 07, 2017, 11:36:24 AM »
One simply cannot state as fact that the MLB was superior to the Negro league, you can state it as opinion but we'll never know and there are no metrics to determine which if either league was superior.  One thing for sure, there were Negro League players who were better at their positions than any MLB player at the time (Josh Gibson for example); that, according to many people I have spoken with who saw both.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #41: September 07, 2017, 11:38:13 AM »


That's not what you said the first time. And if measuring a player's greatness involves the players he played against or didn't play against, which is totally fair, then what does that say about the great players of the Negro League? They not only missed out on playing against the great players of MLB but they also played a lot of their games against teams made up of players who weren't good enough to play in the Negro League.

It’s complicated, no doubt. But no one is really putting any Negro League players on the same level and the best MLB ones (I don’t think. I’m definitely not).

I just think about someone like Satchel Paige. He pitched at a high level in MLB in his 40s. It’s a shame we will never know how he would have fared against MLB batters in his 20s

Offline tomterp

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #42: September 07, 2017, 12:03:51 PM »
Ruth's 60.

Seriously though, they're all tainted.  All those above 61 are tainted for well-known reasons.  This season, it'll be the juiced ball.  With Maris, it was (1) addition of two expansion teams with AA pitchers that he faced a total of 36 games; (2) additional 8 games; (3) short fence (297); (4) most important, he hit ahead of Mantle. Not that I buy into any of that (nor do I care) but that's what the Ruth fans offered.  And with Ruth, it was the short fence.

The population of the US was substantially larger by the time Maris took the field, meaning the talent pool was much deeper.  And Ruth hit ahead of Gehrig all season, whose .373 .474 .765 1.240 quad slash line didn't suck.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #43: September 07, 2017, 12:21:55 PM »


:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:



He may not have played against some of the best players who played in the Negro League at the time but to say this is just plain stupid. There were plenty of great players in MLB at the time.

When did I say that there weren’t great players in MLB then? Of course there were. No intelligent person would deny it. But while I can say that I’m relatively certain that almost all of the best baseball players in the world are in MLB, I can say with absolute certainty that was not the case in Ruth’s time. If you don’t think that Ruth hit a couple of homers against a pitcher who wouldn’t have been there if baseball were integrated you’re deluding yourself.

Plus you missed the point of my post. Which is that the whole thing about the “real” HR record is silly. The record is 73.


http://baseballhall.org/hof/gibson-josh

Offline GuyFromCO

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #44: September 07, 2017, 12:45:48 PM »

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #45: September 07, 2017, 12:49:41 PM »
The mental gymnastics here is OT and hilarious.

It's on the plaque.  Therefore, it must be true.  And official.

Offline More of #34

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #46: September 07, 2017, 11:19:54 PM »
All Rendon does is hit, hit, hit, and field well, day in and day out.  And he smiles a lot.  He's my most valuable player.

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #47: September 08, 2017, 08:11:01 AM »
All Rendon does is hit, hit, hit, and field well, day in and day out.  And he smiles a lot.  He's my most valuable player.
Thank you for putting the thread back on track

Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #48: September 08, 2017, 10:59:47 AM »
Ruth's 60.

Seriously though, they're all tainted.  All those above 61 are tainted for well-known reasons.  This season, it'll be the juiced ball.  With Maris, it was (1) addition of two expansion teams with AA pitchers that he faced a total of 36 games; (2) additional 8 games; (3) short fence (297); (4) most important, he hit ahead of Mantle.  Not that I buy into any of that (nor do I care) but that's what the Ruth fans offered.  And with Ruth, it was the short fence.

Ruth also played before integration.  I think the 61 Marris hit was the most impressive all things considered. 

Offline Ray D

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Re: Rendon or Murphy for MVP
« Reply #49: September 08, 2017, 11:37:34 AM »
Ruth also played before integration.  I think the 61 Marris hit was the most impressive all things considered. 
No doubt, integration dramatically improved the quality of baseball in general.  But by 1961, it still had little impact on pitching.  There just weren't may black pitchers by then, so I don't think that segregation in '27 gave Ruth any significant advantage over Maris in '61.