Author Topic: Shohei Ohtani  (Read 8587 times)

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Online bluestreak

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #125: November 29, 2017, 08:10:37 PM »
If he is to be a starter, no way you give him 500 at bats to injure himself running the bases and fouling off pitches. NL makes more sense to me, gets a chance to hit every 5th day and could be a huge PH weapon if used correctly. Otherwise he would have to ditch pitching or maybe relief only, which wouldn't really be worth it if he has arm issues that impact his viability as a everyday position player.

I agree. I think he does not add much value over the average DH. I believe he adds a lot of offensive value over the average pitcher. He could DH in interleague games and every fifth game you have an extra bat. You wouldn’t have to bat him 9th, makes substitutions easier etc. I believe he adds more value in the NL.

Offline aBaltoNat

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #126: November 29, 2017, 10:32:27 PM »
Guys....shut this thread down. There is no way.

Offline LoveAngelos

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Re: Shohei Otani
« Reply #127: November 30, 2017, 09:45:53 PM »
That's a consulate.


Perhaps that will get lost in the translation and if not there is always Benihana.
I understand Mike Rizzo came to DC because we have the Olive Garden and Mama Lucias

Offline mdnatsfan

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #128: December 01, 2017, 03:24:09 PM »
North Korea missiles cannot reach DC....oh nevermind.

Offline ChicagoCubs

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #129: December 01, 2017, 05:32:48 PM »
But what can the Nationals offer him on the offensive side of the ball? At-bats during his regular starts, and pinch-hitting opportunities on off-days? I'm sure there's an AL club or two who can offer him the chance to compete for starts at DH.

I still think he ends up in the American League.

His value is actually higher in the National League.

Even if he conservatively hits .260 with 20 homeruns from the pitcher position, that's so much higher than what a team will normally get out of the pitcher 9 spot.  If you look at the Cubs series it was usually the 7-8-9 spots that were the easy outs that got the Cubs pitchers out of a jam. (especially in the first 3 games)  Think of it this way, if your catcher hits 280 with 20 homers, he's one of the top offensive catchers in the league.  The bar is alot lower than 1B/OF/DH.    2nd/SS also have a lower bar.

Madison Baumgardner is considered the Michael Jordan of Pitcher hitting and his career average is .185/.232/.322.  His best two years were .258 and 4 home runs and .247 and 5 home runs.

This would especially come handy in the playoffs and World Series for any team that had him.  Even an AL team would benefit in the World Series when he played under NL rules.  It's a game changer.
You can field a line up of:

1. Trea Turner
2.  Harper
3.  Zimmerman
4.  Murphy
5.  Rendon
6.  Otani
7.  Taylor
8.  Wyerth upgrade
9.  Matt Wieters upgrade

The other problem with the AL is if Otani takes up a DH spot he has to outperform the typical DH.  That would mean hitting something like 290+ and 25+ homer runs.  You get the point.  If he struggles at all then you really aren't getting anything out of him at the DH spot and he might actually hurt you.  But as a hitting pitcher even .240 with 15 homeruns would be phenomenal.  So alot less pressure and alot more value to the NL.

And in the AL, once you declare him the DH when he pitches, even if he comes out of the game, the relief pitchers have to hit.  They can no longer revert back to the DH.  So this is actually a huge negative for AL teams since he probably won't have many complete games.

In the NL, he would have many pinch hit opportunities.  And if they get creative he might never have to take the field as they could replace him with a fielder or a pinch runner. 

On top of starting him at OF or 1B to give someone like Haper/Zimmerman/Tucker/Wyerth upgrage a rest day.

There's also the strategy of using him as a closer.  Then you can start him as an everyday OF and have him come on in the 9th inning for the save on multiple days.

Now if he were to land on the Cubs or any other team in the NL he would have the same effect.
So in the NL the difference between a team with Otani and a team without Otani is huge.

As close as our series was:
The Cubs with Otani would easily beat the Nats with a normal hitting pitcher.
&
The Nationals with Otani would demolish the Cubs with a normal hitting pitcher.

His value to the NL is 10x, 100x greater than his value to the AL.  The AL may be more beneficial to him but in terms of what is beneficial to the team and to winning for himself and his team, the NL is where he is at.  It would be like having a player on cheat code as a hitting pitcher which gives you a gigantic advantage under no DH rules.

Assuming he even does marginally well, when his big contract comes up in a couple years, I think you will see the NL teams willing to pay alot more to get him.  The only place it really helps an AL team is for a championship contender, who needs him in a 7 game World Series so they can have him hit under NL no DH rules.




Offline ChicagoCubs

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Re: Shohei Otani
« Reply #130: December 01, 2017, 05:34:06 PM »

I think there is also one in LA and SF and maybe even a Japanese steak house

There's only one embassy and one ambassador.  The rest are second/third tier consulates.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #131: December 01, 2017, 05:55:51 PM »
Two sentences, max

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #132: December 01, 2017, 06:26:30 PM »
Two sentences, max
wait, we have max.  they have lester

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #133: December 01, 2017, 07:05:04 PM »
His value is actually higher in the National League.

Even if he conservatively hits .260 with 20 homeruns from the pitcher position, that's so much higher than what a team will normally get out of the pitcher 9 spot.

Conservatively, you have him on a 100 home run pace?

Offline ChicagoCubs

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #134: December 01, 2017, 08:26:14 PM »
Two sentences, max

There's always one.

Offline ChicagoCubs

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #135: December 01, 2017, 08:26:35 PM »
Conservatively, you have him on a 100 home run pace?

That would include pinch hits and outfield at bats.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #136: December 01, 2017, 08:45:52 PM »
There's always one.
Apparently it's you

Offline Count Walewski

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #137: December 02, 2017, 08:34:25 AM »
His value is actually higher in the National League.

Even if he conservatively hits .260 with 20 homeruns from the pitcher position, that's so much higher than what a team will normally get out of the pitcher 9 spot.  If you look at the Cubs series it was usually the 7-8-9 spots that were the easy outs that got the Cubs pitchers out of a jam. (especially in the first 3 games)  Think of it this way, if your catcher hits 280 with 20 homers, he's one of the top offensive catchers in the league.  The bar is alot lower than 1B/OF/DH.    2nd/SS also have a lower bar.

Madison Baumgardner is considered the Michael Jordan of Pitcher hitting and his career average is .185/.232/.322.  His best two years were .258 and 4 home runs and .247 and 5 home runs.

This would especially come handy in the playoffs and World Series for any team that had him.  Even an AL team would benefit in the World Series when he played under NL rules.  It's a game changer.
You can field a line up of:

1. Trea Turner
2.  Harper
3.  Zimmerman
4.  Murphy
5.  Rendon
6.  Otani
7.  Taylor
8.  Wyerth upgrade
9.  Matt Wieters upgrade

The other problem with the AL is if Otani takes up a DH spot he has to outperform the typical DH.  That would mean hitting something like 290+ and 25+ homer runs.  You get the point.  If he struggles at all then you really aren't getting anything out of him at the DH spot and he might actually hurt you.  But as a hitting pitcher even .240 with 15 homeruns would be phenomenal.  So alot less pressure and alot more value to the NL.

And in the AL, once you declare him the DH when he pitches, even if he comes out of the game, the relief pitchers have to hit.  They can no longer revert back to the DH.  So this is actually a huge negative for AL teams since he probably won't have many complete games.

In the NL, he would have many pinch hit opportunities.  And if they get creative he might never have to take the field as they could replace him with a fielder or a pinch runner. 

On top of starting him at OF or 1B to give someone like Haper/Zimmerman/Tucker/Wyerth upgrage a rest day.

There's also the strategy of using him as a closer.  Then you can start him as an everyday OF and have him come on in the 9th inning for the save on multiple days.

Now if he were to land on the Cubs or any other team in the NL he would have the same effect.
So in the NL the difference between a team with Otani and a team without Otani is huge.

As close as our series was:
The Cubs with Otani would easily beat the Nats with a normal hitting pitcher.
&
The Nationals with Otani would demolish the Cubs with a normal hitting pitcher.

His value to the NL is 10x, 100x greater than his value to the AL.  The AL may be more beneficial to him but in terms of what is beneficial to the team and to winning for himself and his team, the NL is where he is at.  It would be like having a player on cheat code as a hitting pitcher which gives you a gigantic advantage under no DH rules.

Assuming he even does marginally well, when his big contract comes up in a couple years, I think you will see the NL teams willing to pay alot more to get him.  The only place it really helps an AL team is for a championship contender, who needs him in a 7 game World Series so they can have him hit under NL no DH rules.

That sounds right to me. But as you note at the end, the AL is more beneficial to him, and he's currently in charge of where he will end up.

I saw a list yesterday of, allegedly, the 5 teams that Ohtani has narrowed his choices down to. The only National League teams on there are the Padres and the Dodgers.

Offline ChicagoCubs

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #138: December 03, 2017, 02:14:38 AM »
That sounds right to me. But as you note at the end, the AL is more beneficial to him, and he's currently in charge of where he will end up.

I saw a list yesterday of, allegedly, the 5 teams that Ohtani has narrowed his choices down to. The only National League teams on there are the Padres and the Dodgers.

It would be the job of the NL Teams to convince him that he would be that much more important and have a much greater impact on winning for a NL team.  If you explain it well to him anyone can see it.  An NL team would give him a better environment to develop since as a hitting pitcher the bar is so low.  As a AL DH he has to outperform comparable AL DH.  If he can't do that or isn't there yet then that's asking alot for an AL team to field a supbar DH.  So there's alot of pressure on him to excel as a hitter right off the bat as well as an SP.  And there's a good chance that an AL team couldn't guarantee him DH at bats if he performed below the average.

In the NL there is no pressure. 

The other interesting thing is DH rule where once you declare your pitcher the DH for the game that all relief pitchers coming after Otani have to hit as the DH basically offsets any positive coming out of Otani as a pitching DH with the easy outs that follow afterwards.
The way they dealt with this with the Ham Fighters is that Otani never hit/DHed when he pitched.  So in the AB calculation an AL team has to subtract all his pitching days as non hitting days.

In the NL of course he hits when he pitches.  So the gap between AL AB and NL AB isn't as big as you would initially think, especially if you get creative with pinch hitting.


Offline hotshot

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #139: December 03, 2017, 09:29:29 AM »
Am sure he's consulting with Ichiro, Tanaka, Darvish, et al. Would like to be a Japanese-speaking fly on the wall for those interesting conversations.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #140: December 03, 2017, 09:32:48 AM »
Am sure he's consulting with Ichiro, Tanaka, Darvish, et al. Would like to be a Japanese-speaking fly on the wall for those interesting conversations.
And don't forget Charlie Manuel.

Offline imref

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #141: December 03, 2017, 10:34:35 AM »
The Mariners are making a strong push for Ohtani, they've asked several of their players to hold next week open to meet with him.

Online Ray D

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #142: December 03, 2017, 11:29:45 AM »
That sounds right to me.

Honestly?  You read the whole thing?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #143: December 03, 2017, 11:46:23 AM »
Am sure he's consulting with Ichiro, Tanaka, Darvish, et al. Would like to be a Japanese-speaking fly on the wall for those interesting conversations.
Red Sox think their experience with Dice-K, Tazawa, and Okajima might help.  That, and the Green Monster might remind Ohtani of Godzilla.  Make him feel at home.

Speaking of Godzilla, maybe we can have The Chief talk to him.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #144: December 03, 2017, 12:16:33 PM »
don't see how he doesn't pick NYY or one of the west-coast teams.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #145: December 03, 2017, 05:09:19 PM »
don't see how he doesn't pick NYY or one of the west-coast teams.
I think Seattle or LA Angels.


Offline ChicagoCubs

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #146: December 03, 2017, 05:39:32 PM »
don't see how he doesn't pick NYY or one of the west-coast teams.

He's from a small village in Northern Japan akin to Wisconsin or Michigan.  And he went on to play for Nippon Ham in Hokkaido which is snow country and equivalent to Minneapolis.  So I'm not sure if he cares for big cities or the sun.  Seems like he thinks differently than the normal player.  With that trajectory he ends up in Minnesota.


Offline ChicagoCubs

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #147: December 03, 2017, 05:44:54 PM »
Padres will get a interview at the very least out of respect since they have Nomo in the front office and Otani's former strengthen and conditioning coach form the Nippon Ham.  And they also have:

"preexisting ties to Ohtani — seem obvious.

For instance, executives Logan White and Acey Kohrogi were heavily involved in attempting to recruit Ohtani for the Los Angeles Dodgers when he was coming out of high school. Former reliever Takashi Saito, another member of San Diego’s front office, was represented by Ohtani’s agent, Point Loma native Nez Balelo."

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/sd-sp-padres-preller-hope-meet-shohei-ohtani-20171202-story.html

Offline imref

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #148: December 03, 2017, 06:44:36 PM »
Rosenthall: 

Sources: #Twins also out on Ohtani, joining #RedSox, #Yankees. Strong belief, as others have noted, that he will wind up on west coast. #SFGiants, #Mariners in, per @JeffPassan.

A’s out too

Online bluestreak

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Re: Shohei Ohtani
« Reply #149: December 03, 2017, 11:37:41 PM »
Nats out of running, per Janes.