Author Topic: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning  (Read 92310 times)

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Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1325: June 24, 2019, 12:07:21 PM »
Socialist implies redistribution to the whole, sports may redistribute, but only to ownership

Sports is one of the places where there is the clearest trickle-down effect, though, one of the very few.   For example, Aaron Rodgers' contract, or Manny Machado's.  There's a lot of distortion as to the player slices of the pie in the major American sports (generous minimum salaries in exchange for restrictions on freedom to change teams, for example), but there's no doubt that major league players do benefit to some extent from the legalized cartels that are the four major sports.  Some are harmed, of course - NBA players whose market salaries would be above the max, for example - but on the whole the effect is almost certainly beneficial to their pocketbooks.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1326: June 24, 2019, 12:39:12 PM »
Sports is one of the places where there is the clearest trickle-down effect, though, one of the very few.   For example, Aaron Rodgers' contract, or Manny Machado's.  There's a lot of distortion as to the player slices of the pie in the major American sports (generous minimum salaries in exchange for restrictions on freedom to change teams, for example), but there's no doubt that major league players do benefit to some extent from the legalized cartels that are the four major sports.  Some are harmed, of course - NBA players whose market salaries would be above the max, for example - but on the whole the effect is almost certainly beneficial to their pocketbooks.

All of that is contracted, and even the high salaries probably represent a restraint on trade favorable to ownership- if there were no standard player contract, no cap, and no restrictions other than those contracted for by the player, Rogers and machado would likely have far more favorable contracts, meanwhile those at the bottom- practice Squads, guys without signing bonuses in the minors, even nba summer league invites (which is televised and monetized by the nba) have terrible salaries and job protection.

Compare that to ownership which has a cap on what it can spend on salary, a slower of talented players who can be forced to play for them (unless they want to change professions), and heavy revenue sharing. Not to mention federal and local legislation and regulation to ensure that, no matter how incompetent, they can’t fail.

Offline Duke of Earl

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1327: June 24, 2019, 02:10:21 PM »
Socialist implies redistribution to the whole,

Not to Bernie Sanders.  He defines it as everyone being nice to everyone.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1328: June 24, 2019, 02:50:19 PM »
All of that is contracted, and even the high salaries probably represent a restraint on trade favorable to ownership- if there were no standard player contract, no cap, and no restrictions other than those contracted for by the player, Rogers and machado would likely have far more favorable contracts, meanwhile those at the bottom- practice Squads, guys without signing bonuses in the minors, even nba summer league invites (which is televised and monetized by the nba) have terrible salaries and job protection.

Compare that to ownership which has a cap on what it can spend on salary, a slower of talented players who can be forced to play for them (unless they want to change professions), and heavy revenue sharing. Not to mention federal and local legislation and regulation to ensure that, no matter how incompetent, they can’t fail.

I wouldn't bet on that.  The redistributive aspects that are contracted into CBAs serve to increase the pool of teams able to hand out contracts like that and thus competition in the labor market for mid-tier and higher free agents.  Maybe without redistribution, Machado might have gotten more money (or maybe not), but it would have been from the Yankees or similar, not the Padres.   Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that the benefits primarily inure to the owners, but I do think players are getting some slice of the pro-trust pie. 

And yes, I also agree fully as to the practice squad/MiLB/NBA Summer League types.  The NHL and NBA have done something to address this with 2-way contracts.  There's a lot of scope for improvement in baseball.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1329: June 24, 2019, 03:01:04 PM »
I wouldn't bet on that.  The redistributive aspects that are contracted into CBAs serve to increase the pool of teams able to hand out contracts like that and thus competition in the labor market for mid-tier and higher free agents.  Maybe without redistribution, Machado might have gotten more money (or maybe not), but it would have been from the Yankees or similar, not the Padres.   Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that the benefits primarily inure to the owners, but I do think players are getting some slice of the pro-trust pie. 

And yes, I also agree fully as to the practice squad/MiLB/NBA Summer League types.  The NHL and NBA have done something to address this with 2-way contracts.  There's a lot of scope for improvement in baseball.


How much would LeBron James in his prime command on a truly open market? At one point half the cavs value was attributable to his presence. How much would a floundering franchise throw at Andrew Luck if he was a free agent and not subject to a draft?

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1330: June 24, 2019, 03:22:55 PM »

How much would LeBron James in his prime command on a truly open market? At one point half the cavs value was attributable to his presence. How much would a floundering franchise throw at Andrew Luck if he was a free agent and not subject to a draft?

1) I already addressed that issue.
2) In the world in which antitrust law applies to major league sports, a "floundering club" is going bankrupt, not just losing.  The real answer is "which one of 3 or 4 clubs gazillion-dollar offers would Andrew Luck have taken?"  He sure as heck wouldn't be in Indianapolis, but there also probably wouldn't be a market for 30 different teams to all be able to pay quarterbacks the total amount of money they do.

It's not like there's not a natural experiment out there, anyway.  Take a look at how player salaries in the 5 top European soccer leagues look across clubs, and then compare the second-division and third-division salaries in those countries to how the structure in the US.   The results are pretty stark. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1331: June 24, 2019, 03:29:57 PM »
Socialist implies redistribution to the whole, sports may redistribute, but only to ownership
I think technically, our leagues are oligopolies and cartels.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1332: June 24, 2019, 03:38:16 PM »
1) I already addressed that issue.
2) In the world in which antitrust law applies to major league sports, a "floundering club" is going bankrupt, not just losing.  The real answer is "which one of 3 or 4 clubs gazillion-dollar offers would Andrew Luck have taken?"  He sure as heck wouldn't be in Indianapolis, but there also probably wouldn't be a market for 30 different teams to all be able to pay quarterbacks the total amount of money they do.

It's not like there's not a natural experiment out there, anyway.  Take a look at how player salaries in the 5 top European soccer leagues look across clubs, and then compare the second-division and third-division salaries in those countries to how the structure in the US.   The results are pretty stark.

What’s the analogy to the second and third division in US sports? I may have missed your analogy.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1333: June 24, 2019, 03:47:42 PM »
What’s the analogy to the second and third division in US sports? I may have missed your analogy.

The point is that players on second-division soccer teams in England and Germany, for example, make way, way more than minor league players in any sport in the US, but the average salaries in the top divisions are much lower (with a few exceptions, but I do mean very few).   For example, the average salary in the 2. Bundesliga is nearly $500k, and the average third division salary is over $125k. 

The salary curves look quite different over there for a lot of reasons, but the biggest beneficiaries are guys who are good players but not good enough for the top divisions.  And the guys who lose the salary that ends up there aren't the very top players, but rather the Charlie Mortons of the world: in European soccer, the equivalent of the Rays ain't paying anyone $15 million a year. 

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1334: June 24, 2019, 03:52:10 PM »
The point is that players on second-division soccer teams in England and Germany, for example, make way, way more than minor league players in any sport in the US, but the average salaries in the top divisions are much lower (with a few exceptions).   

The salary curves look quite different over there for a lot of reasons, but the biggest beneficiaries are guys who are good players but not good enough for the top divisions.  And the guys who lose the salary that ends up there aren't the very top players, but rather the Charlie Mortons of the world: in European soccer, the equivalent of the Rays ain't paying anyone $15 million a year. 

The problem with that comparison is that the top leagues in Europe represent one country, If the UK only fielded a couple of teams, the French and Germans a few more, the Netherlands one... the salary curve may look similar, but the overall total would be astronomically larger

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1335: June 24, 2019, 03:57:14 PM »
The problem with that comparison is that the top leagues in Europe represent one country, If the UK only fielded a couple of teams, the French and Germans a few more, the Netherlands one... the salary curve may look similar, but the overall total would be astronomically larger

No, it actually doesn't matter for this comparison, because it holds true across countries.  You can consider the Champions League as being a "league" if you'd like  - it's almost the exact distribution you mentioned - and the same thing still holds (or even all of EU soccer, as freedom of movement more or less allows players to sign with clubs in any country they wish).   

For example, in 2018, 10 of the 14 clubs with the highest average annual player salary were in one league (consider all of European top-level soccer to be a single league for this).  21 of the top 30 were also from the same league. What league?

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1336: June 24, 2019, 04:08:32 PM »
No, it actually doesn't matter for this comparison.  You can consider the Champions League as being a "league" if you'd like, and the same thing still holds (or even all of EU soccer, as freedom of movement more or less allows players to sign with clubs in any country they wish).   

For example, in 2018, 10 of the 14 clubs with the highest average annual player salary were in one league (consider all of European top-level soccer to be a single league for this).  21 of the top 30 were also from the same league. What league?

And that one league plays in a country with a population roughly equivalent to California. I’m not surprised that teams located in cities that make buffalo look large can’t afford to pay the same salaries as teams located in metropolises.

If you want to use the champions league as an example, I’m sure American players would jump at comparable salaries playing for teams not in the top league- would anyone playing in Fresno now object to being treated like a Chelsea player

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1337: June 24, 2019, 04:09:18 PM »
And that one league plays in a country with a population roughly equivalent to California. I’m not surprised that teams located in cities that make buffalo look large can’t afford to pay the same salaries as teams located in metropolises.

If you want to use the champions league as an example, I’m sure American players would jump at comparable salaries playing for teams not in the top league- would anyone playing in Fresno now object to being treated like a Chelsea player

Except that that league is the NBA.  I meant all clubs, all sports, the entire world - which could have been clearer, but there's a great hint in the fact that the Premier League only has 20 clubs.

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1338: June 24, 2019, 04:14:46 PM »
trade eaton after this year.  his value is that he's cheap, has leadership qualities, and is a solid table setter.  Will still have value and frees up space for another OF bopper for us.  Turner and Robles can set the tables.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1339: June 24, 2019, 04:21:39 PM »
Except that that league is the NBA.  I meant all clubs, all sports, the entire world - which could have been clearer, but there's a great hint in the fact that the Premier League only has 20 clubs.

An if the champions league is your example of salary distribution, I’m sure anyone in the g-league would be fine getting paid like they played for arsenal.

Salary distribution may have a similar pattern, but the US system makes the overall pot smaller. No AAA owner can decide to make a run at joining the majors and start spending, Green Bay doesn’t have to worry about relegation. Thanks to the draft and pre-arbitration years, owners can compete without really spending at all if they choose . The Rays aren’t spending at all this year- how are they being punished financially? Their team will still sell for a tidy profit (the lack of relegation ensures they own one of a finite set of teams), they still get national tv money, they actually get further compensation based on market size. Their worst case is Tampa not being viable and selling to a group from another city - and that’s in the most coat throat us league. NFL teams spend less in salary than they receive in revenue sharing- no matter how incompetent the owner the team can’t fail.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1340: June 24, 2019, 04:29:06 PM »
An if the champions league is your example of salary distribution, I’m sure anyone in the g-league would be fine getting paid like they played for arsenal.

Salary distribution may have a similar pattern, but the US system makes the overall pot smaller. No AAA owner can decide to make a run at joining the majors and start spending, Green Bay doesn’t have to worry about relegation. Thanks to the draft and pre-arbitration years, owners can compete without really spending at all if they choose . The Rays aren’t spending at all this year- how are they being punished financially? Their team will still sell for a tidy profit (the lack of relegation ensures they one one of a finite set of teams), they still get national tv money, they actually get further compensation based on market size. Their worst case is Tampa not being viable and selling to a group from another city - and that’s in the most coat throat us league. NFL teams spend less in salary than they receive in revenue sharing- no matter how incompetent the owner the team can’t fail.

You're still not getting my point, I don't think.  My point was that MAJOR LEAGUE players collectively do better under the American system than they do elsewhere.  So do owners.   Minor league players do far worse.  I'm not saying the player pot overall is bigger, because I doubt it is.  That is the point of this post:

 
Sports is one of the places where there is the clearest trickle-down effect, though, one of the very few.   For example, Aaron Rodgers' contract, or Manny Machado's.  There's a lot of distortion as to the player slices of the pie in the major American sports (generous minimum salaries in exchange for restrictions on freedom to change teams, for example), but there's no doubt that major league players do benefit to some extent from the legalized cartels that are the four major sports.  Some are harmed, of course - NBA players whose market salaries would be above the max, for example - but on the whole the effect is almost certainly beneficial to their pocketbooks.

I find this fairly hard to dispute when the average player salary of the Indiana Pacers is higher than at Chelsea, the average Baltimore Oriole makes more money than the average player at Milan or Tottenham, and yet second-division players make between $400 and $500k a year in German and British soccer while AAA players can't afford decent housing.  The players are somewhat complicit in this, of course: they could allow minor league players into their unions and negotiate salaries at those levels too.  Think of how the owners would like that move!  There are other factors, of course - such as American corporate welfare stadiums lining the owners' pockets and propping up the salary levels - but the major league players aren't doing too badly for themselves.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1341: June 24, 2019, 04:40:59 PM »
You're still not getting my point, I don't think.  My point was that MAJOR LEAGUE players collectively do better under the American system than they do elsewhere.  So do owners.   Minor league players do far worse.  I'm not saying the player pot overall is bigger, because I doubt it is.  That is the point of this post:

 


My point is that you’re wrong- compared to the revenue that they take in, US owners just don’t spend because there is no pressure on them to spend; league membership is calcified, there is plenty of talent on league mandated below market contracts and revenue sharing is strong. Total NFL salaries are more than total premier league salaries, but in proportion to league revenue

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1342: June 24, 2019, 05:01:58 PM »
My point is that you’re wrong- compared to the revenue that they take in, US owners just don’t spend because there is no pressure on them to spend; league membership is calcified, there is plenty of talent on league mandated below market contracts and revenue sharing is strong. Total NFL salaries are more than total premier league salaries, but in proportion to league revenue

If that's the argument you think you're having, have at it, but this is the first time you've raised the issue of spending-to-revenue ratios.   It's hard to separate the effects of the various market restraints in US sports, but I tend to just come down on a different side of it than you seem to: I think if you reorganized MLB/MiLB along the lines of the European soccer leagues, average salaries would fall at the MLB level, because owners of teams facing potential relegation simply would spend less and others would suddenly be spending a ton on transfer fees.  I'm not sure any increased spending would go to the players.  MiLB players would make way more, of course.   

The removal of the max salary would mean LeBron could get $75 million a year in his prime - but it wouldn't have been from the Cavs.  Better or worse, who knows?

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1343: June 24, 2019, 05:07:28 PM »
I think percent of revenue just shows that owners facing relegation or without cheap drafted talent are willing to spend

Offline Slateman

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1344: June 24, 2019, 07:44:00 PM »
According to the NESN broadcasters, Giolito's high school coach worked with him in the offseason to change his arm slot

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1345: June 24, 2019, 07:46:54 PM »
According to the NESN broadcasters, Giolito's high school coach worked with him in the offseason to change his arm slot

Maybe we should have done that.

Offline dracnal

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1346: June 24, 2019, 08:43:28 PM »
Maybe we should have done that.

It's pretty clear the team doesn't have the kind of money it'd take to get help from a HS coach. I can't think of any other reason they wouldn't try new things.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1347: June 24, 2019, 08:54:04 PM »
Maybe we should have done that.

I’m starting to think that the nats May be one of the least creative organizations in sports

Offline slhubic

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1348: June 24, 2019, 11:55:36 PM »
echoing what many have said: it surely does seem like there are many players who openly dislike 'eaton', and I think that says a lot...and, with everything I hear as to what may be the reasons for such a thing, I have to say that I agree with the dislike...

Offline Air Desmond

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Re: Eaton for Giolito Lopez and Dunning
« Reply #1349: June 27, 2019, 08:02:17 PM »
Eaton is officially a liability in RF. Countless misplays this year.