Author Topic: 2017 Hall of Fame  (Read 2559 times)

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Offline imref

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #25: January 18, 2017, 06:33:04 PM »
Raines get a spot at Nats' Park?

he certainly deserves it.

Offline mitlen

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #26: January 18, 2017, 06:33:39 PM »
he certainly deserves it.

Agreed and a day to go with it.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #27: January 18, 2017, 07:16:10 PM »
Raines get a spot at Nats' Park?
didn't do it for Pedro, who won a Cy with the Expos.  I don't really know the criteria.  They may have to Vladi next year.

Someone ask Bos for his thoughts and insights.  I've asked before on his chats, but he has not taken the q.  I wonder if it because he views his news as old news

Offline mitlen

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #28: January 18, 2017, 07:22:11 PM »
didn't do it for Pedro, who won a Cy with the Expos.  I don't really know the criteria.  They may have to Vladi next year.

Someone ask Bos for his thoughts and insights.  I've asked before on his chats, but he has not taken the q.  I wonder if it because he views his news as old news

Pedro played in Boston.    That's that.    :)

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #29: January 18, 2017, 07:25:58 PM »
Pedro played in Boston.    That's that.    :)
  There's a great scene from the post-2004 locker room celebration when they stick a microphone in front of Pedro and he salutes the fans of Montreal. 

Offline slhubic

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #30: January 18, 2017, 08:12:50 PM »
yeah !  quite bummed that vlad did not get in on his first ballot, but, he should almost certainly get in next year!  my favorite player, so obviously it was quite hoped for.  as the expo fan, though, certainly well-deserved that 'the rock' is finally in--should have been long ago..

Offline monkeyhit

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #31: January 19, 2017, 09:09:19 AM »
Nice to see Raines get in. Vlad not making it first ballot is ridiculous. Is Larry Walker eligible soon?

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #32: January 19, 2017, 09:22:54 AM »
Raines get a spot at Nats' Park?

Hopefully they consider that more than "Pudge" RoIdriguez.

Not Vlad??? Stupid :smh:

:clap:

Vlad deserved it more than Ivan Rodriguez.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #33: January 19, 2017, 09:49:59 AM »
Vlad deserved it more than Ivan Rodriguez.

I've always been a casual critic of the "Vlad is a surefire HOFer" argument. I'm not going to complain when he gets in, I just don't think it's as clearcut as some make it out to be. He is obviously helped by a couple of "showy" things - his arm and his ability to hit poor pitches - that really have limited baseball value.

The most charitable peak period where you can measure Vlad is 1998-2007. During that period he had a .980 OPS and a 151 OPS+. That's really good.

But over that 10-year period he also ranked just 9th in total offense, according to Fangraphs. The guys who were within 35 or so runs created were: Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, Bobby Abreu (all above him); Todd Helton, Jim Thome, Brian Giles, and Carlos Delgado (all below him).

Giambi, Sheffield, Abreu, Helton and Giles are all +- 10% from Vlad in career fWAR as well.

So I've just never seen it. Very good hitter in a great-hitting era, poor range defender with a great arm, fun player to watch. In no way a sure-fire HOFer.

I put no stock in the PED stuff whatsoever because I will never believe we know with certainty that anyone was clean during that era.


Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #34: January 19, 2017, 10:15:15 AM »


I put no stock in the PED stuff whatsoever because I will never believe we know with certainty that anyone was clean during that era.



If Vlad was using PED's then he was using them improperly.  He should've consulted Ivan Rodriguez.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #35: January 19, 2017, 10:41:37 AM »
Nice to see Raines get in. Vlad not making it first ballot is ridiculous. Is Larry Walker eligible soon?
Larry Walker was already eligible but many of the voters are biased against Colorado hitters.

Offline GuyFromCO

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #36: January 19, 2017, 10:50:34 AM »
Larry Walker was already eligible but many of the voters are biased against Colorado hitters.

Like that FG article said -- if you're voting for Vlad, you've gotta vote for Walker.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #37: January 19, 2017, 12:04:47 PM »
If Vlad was using PED's then he was using them improperly.  He should've consulted Ivan Rodriguez.

I don't understand what this means. We've seen many individuals linked to PEDs who didn't fit the model of the Jose Canseco look.

And Vladimir Guerrero HAS already been linked to a trainer who was busted with supplying PEDs to Juan Gonzalez, unless I'm mistaken.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2763252

Again, I give the "lack" of evidence on certain individuals almost no weight. MLB ignored it for years, PED use was rampant, and everyone claims they were innocent.

Offline GuyFromCO

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #38: January 19, 2017, 01:08:08 PM »
So was Bagwell.

Offline imref

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #39: January 19, 2017, 01:20:55 PM »
Schilling appears to have taken out his frustration by getting into a twitter fight with a fake Sidney Ponson account.

http://deadspin.com/curt-schilling-is-convinced-he-is-beefing-with-the-real-1791374161

Schilling fell by about 8% this year, he seems to have put himself out of hall contention simply because of his antics over the last year or so.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #40: January 19, 2017, 01:41:24 PM »
Schilling fell by about 8% this year, he seems to have put himself out of hall contention simply because of his antics over the last year or so.

When your off-field behavior is more impressive than your on-field performance the HoF isn't likely to come calling.

If there was a Hall of Good Players, Schilling could be considered.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #41: January 19, 2017, 02:11:55 PM »
If twitter didnt exist, schilling would be in

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #42: January 19, 2017, 02:13:27 PM »
When your off-field behavior is more impressive than your on-field performance the HoF isn't likely to come calling.

If there was a Hall of Good Players, Schilling could be considered.
He was better than good. And he excelled in the post season which should count for worthy. The fact that he fell rather than rising tells us people are letting his views get in the way. Steve Carlton was a strange dude and right wing survivalist. He just kept it to himself.  There is no way to draw the line in behavior so the voters should just not factor it in.

Offline imref

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #43: January 19, 2017, 02:39:31 PM »
He was better than good. And he excelled in the post season which should count for worthy. The fact that he fell rather than rising tells us people are letting his views get in the way. Steve Carlton was a strange dude and right wing survivalist. He just kept it to himself.  There is no way to draw the line in behavior so the voters should just not factor it in.

Based on his baseball career, Schilling deserves to be in the hall.  I just imagine few voters want to give him that honor now, or have to hear his acceptance speech.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #44: January 19, 2017, 03:18:39 PM »
I'm glad neither of you have a HoF vote.

Offline imref

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #45: January 19, 2017, 03:35:27 PM »
I'm glad neither of you have a HoF vote.

I think the case for Schilling in the HoF is pretty strong.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/160682426/hall-of-fame-case-for-curt-schilling/ notes that since the mound was lowered in 1968:

Strikeout-to-walk ratio: 1st (4.38)
Strikeouts per 9 innings: 4th (8.6)
WHIP: 4th (1.137)
Walks per 9 innings: 6th (1.96)
WAA: 6th (54.1)
ERA+: 7th (127)
Strikeouts: 9th (3,116)
WAR: 10th (80.7)
Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP): 11th (3.23)

The article notes "From 2001-04, at the advanced ages of 34-37, he led all pitchers in WAR, with an average of 7.8. Schilling also was first in strikeout-to-walk ratio, second in strikeouts, third in innings and FIP and fourth in ERA+. For good measure, he won seven postseason games and two World Series rings."

He's arguably among the best playoff pitchers in history:  "In 19 career postseason starts, he went 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA, including a 2.06 ERA over seven Fall Classic outings. Schilling was the MVP of the 1993 National League Championship Series for the Phillies, threw a shutout in that year's World Series against Toronto, and he set a single-postseason record for strikeouts (56) for the 2001 D-backs. That year, he produced a 1.12 ERA, and Arizona won five of his six outings, which included three complete games and a shutout."

By any reasonable analysis, Schilling is a HoF-worthy pitcher.

He's just not one when you look at his personality.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #46: January 19, 2017, 03:42:29 PM »
I think the case for Schilling in the HoF is pretty strong.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/160682426/hall-of-fame-case-for-curt-schilling/ notes that since the mound was lowered in 1968:

Strikeout-to-walk ratio: 1st (4.38)
Strikeouts per 9 innings: 4th (8.6)
WHIP: 4th (1.137)
Walks per 9 innings: 6th (1.96)
WAA: 6th (54.1)
ERA+: 7th (127)
Strikeouts: 9th (3,116)
WAR: 10th (80.7)
Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP): 11th (3.23)

The article notes "From 2001-04, at the advanced ages of 34-37, he led all pitchers in WAR, with an average of 7.8. Schilling also was first in strikeout-to-walk ratio, second in strikeouts, third in innings and FIP and fourth in ERA+. For good measure, he won seven postseason games and two World Series rings."

He's arguably among the best playoff pitchers in history:  "In 19 career postseason starts, he went 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA, including a 2.06 ERA over seven Fall Classic outings. Schilling was the MVP of the 1993 National League Championship Series for the Phillies, threw a shutout in that year's World Series against Toronto, and he set a single-postseason record for strikeouts (56) for the 2001 D-backs. That year, he produced a 1.12 ERA, and Arizona won five of his six outings, which included three complete games and a shutout."

By any reasonable analysis, Schilling is a HoF-worthy pitcher.

He's just not one when you look at his personality.
Thanks for researching that. He also pitched in the heart of the steroid era so he could very well have better stats today or in earlier times. Now if he could just shut his mouth.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #47: January 19, 2017, 04:43:03 PM »
I think the case for Schilling in the HoF is pretty strong.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/160682426/hall-of-fame-case-for-curt-schilling/ notes that since the mound was lowered in 1968:

Strikeout-to-walk ratio: 1st (4.38)
Strikeouts per 9 innings: 4th (8.6)
WHIP: 4th (1.137)
Walks per 9 innings: 6th (1.96)
WAA: 6th (54.1)
ERA+: 7th (127)
Strikeouts: 9th (3,116)
WAR: 10th (80.7)
Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP): 11th (3.23)

The article notes "From 2001-04, at the advanced ages of 34-37, he led all pitchers in WAR, with an average of 7.8. Schilling also was first in strikeout-to-walk ratio, second in strikeouts, third in innings and FIP and fourth in ERA+. For good measure, he won seven postseason games and two World Series rings."

He's arguably among the best playoff pitchers in history:  "In 19 career postseason starts, he went 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA, including a 2.06 ERA over seven Fall Classic outings. Schilling was the MVP of the 1993 National League Championship Series for the Phillies, threw a shutout in that year's World Series against Toronto, and he set a single-postseason record for strikeouts (56) for the 2001 D-backs. That year, he produced a 1.12 ERA, and Arizona won five of his six outings, which included three complete games and a shutout."

By any reasonable analysis, Schilling is a HoF-worthy pitcher.

He's just not one when you look at his personality.

Yeah, I thought Schilling was borderline, but I perused his numbers a little more carefully and an objective look reveals that he should be a slam dunk.  Especially if you buy his insistence that he didn't use PEDs.

But baseball writers will be baseball writers, and they'll put personal feelings into it. :roll: I find him to be a really vile person, but I'd vote for him if I had one.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #48: January 19, 2017, 06:03:19 PM »
Good to see two all-time great, iconic Nationals, Raines and Pudge, get elected to the hall.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: 2017 Hall of Fame
« Reply #49: January 19, 2017, 07:29:59 PM »
Good to see two all-time great, iconic Nationals, Raines and Pudge, get elected to the hall.

Can't wait until Wilkerson and Vidro are on the ballot.