Author Topic: Replace Fed Ex? How did Nats Park work out for DC?  (Read 1769 times)

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Offline GburgNatsFan

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Replace Fed Ex? How did Nats Park work out for DC?
« Topic Start: September 15, 2016, 09:00:52 PM »
JKC bought the land. I'll bet The Danny owns it.

Isn't FedEx Field private property? 

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #1: September 15, 2016, 09:18:18 PM »
So you guys had to pay for a stadium that upon completion would be owned by a private interest?  That's downright trumpian.
JKC bought the land. I'll bet The Danny owns it.


Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #2: September 15, 2016, 09:20:59 PM »
?

I think it was bought and paid for by the Redskins.


So you guys had to pay for a stadium that upon completion would be owned by a private interest?  That's downright trumpian.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #3: September 15, 2016, 09:30:12 PM »
Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.  I was just thinking back to some 90s opinionating in the local rags about Maryland taxpayers somehow or another footing the bill for three stadia in a half decade or so.  Could be the only public costs associated with FedUp were things like access roads and canals to allow the processed Bud Light to escape the area. 

Offline Slateman

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #4: September 15, 2016, 09:32:36 PM »
Yea, I was under the impression that Jack Kent Cook bought the land and paid for the stadium.

Offline Mathguy

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #5: September 15, 2016, 09:57:59 PM »
He did

Yea, I was under the impression that Jack Kent Cook bought the land and paid for the stadium.


Offline tomterp

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #7: September 16, 2016, 08:23:17 AM »
The redskins lease fedex field https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/08/27/daniel-snyder-redskins-have-begun-planning-for-their-new-stadium/

I wonder if that's a ground lease?  I'm pretty sure that JKC paid for the stadium out of pocket, and the county paid for the roads improvements (scant as they were) around the stadium. 

By comparison, Maryland paid the vast lion's share of PSINet Stadium. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/print-edition/2013/03/08/baltimores-stadiums-funded-from-a-mix.html

Quote
M&T Bank Stadium — $230 million
• $220 million in state revenue bonds
• $24 million in private funding
• $113.8 from Md. State Lottery and other Stadium Authority revenue
• $6.5M annual debt service on bonds
• $60,775,000 principal balance as of June 30, 2012

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #8: September 16, 2016, 09:04:06 AM »
Here's hoping MD or DC get the honor of paying for the next skins stadium

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #9: September 16, 2016, 09:06:56 AM »
Here's hoping MD or DC get the honor of paying for the next skins stadium

I don't even really understand how this happens anymore. Taxpayers see right through stadium deals at this point. How freaking shady are all these local politicians and what kind of kickbacks are they getting to push these deals through the local governments?

Why wouldn't the entire DMV just tell Snider to pound sand unless he comes up with the cash?

Offline BrandonK

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #10: September 16, 2016, 10:11:59 AM »
I don't even really understand how this happens anymore. Taxpayers see right through stadium deals at this point. How freaking shady are all these local politicians and what kind of kickbacks are they getting to push these deals through the local governments?

Why wouldn't the entire DMV just tell Snider to pound sand unless he comes up with the cash?

Go read the "Nats Park" discussion... People believe this crap.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #11: September 16, 2016, 10:23:06 AM »
Right, but politicians know what the majority of people think, that's why they rarely put any of these issues to votes and do whatever they can to avoid public votes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-cities-are-shutting-taxpayers-out-of-stadium-debates_us_55c0fc25e4b03e32928f7394

There is very little evidence that these projects are likely to result in net positive economic impact (maybe some do, but as many or more do not), and voters don't support them. So why do they happen? Like, what is the argument FOR a Dulles stadium for the Redskins that will host 10 events a year and cost a billion dollars?

Offline BrandonK

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #12: September 16, 2016, 10:28:38 AM »
Right, but politicians know what the majority of people think, that's why they rarely put any of these issues to votes and do whatever they can to avoid public votes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-cities-are-shutting-taxpayers-out-of-stadium-debates_us_55c0fc25e4b03e32928f7394

There is very little evidence that these projects are likely to result in net positive economic impact (maybe some do, but as many or more do not), and voters don't support them. So why do they happen? Like, what is the argument FOR a Dulles stadium for the Redskins that will host 10 events a year and cost a billion dollars?

Get those jerks out of office. That's about it. I hope the citizens of Arlington (TX) are successful in blocking the new Rangers stadium.

Offline imref

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #13: September 16, 2016, 10:36:00 AM »
Get those jerks out of office. That's about it. I hope the citizens of Arlington (TX) are successful in blocking the new Rangers stadium.

their campaigns are financed by those who's bidding they do, that's the sad part.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #14: September 16, 2016, 10:38:33 AM »
I supported the stadium...I'd rather that 2/3 of a billion be spent on baseball than wasted on schools  :P
Go read the "Nats Park" discussion... People believe this crap.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #15: September 16, 2016, 04:59:16 PM »
Right, but politicians know what the majority of people think, that's why they rarely put any of these issues to votes and do whatever they can to avoid public votes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-cities-are-shutting-taxpayers-out-of-stadium-debates_us_55c0fc25e4b03e32928f7394

There is very little evidence that these projects are likely to result in net positive economic impact (maybe some do, but as many or more do not), and voters don't support them. So why do they happen? Like, what is the argument FOR a Dulles stadium for the Redskins that will host 10 events a year and cost a billion dollars?
oddly enough, I think that it is more plausible that there's economic benefit to the DC with Washington team stadiums than there typically is in other cities.  DC finances these stadiums through bonds paid for by ticket and parking taxes.  Those taxes are paid by the MoCo, PG, Arlington, Alexandria and Fairfax residents who buy the tickets.  The argument that any restaurant and development around a park merely shifts it from other places may hold water in, say, Pittsburgh, but in DC, the shift is from the burbs to the city.  No DC revenue or jobs for a stadium out in Dulles.  I'm still not sure it pays back enough, but DC might be the place it makes sense the most.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #16: September 16, 2016, 09:31:16 PM »
oddly enough, I think that it is more plausible that there's economic benefit to the DC with Washington team stadiums than there typically is in other cities.  DC finances these stadiums through bonds paid for by ticket and parking taxes.  Those taxes are paid by the MoCo, PG, Arlington, Alexandria and Fairfax residents who buy the tickets.  The argument that any restaurant and development around a park merely shifts it from other places may hold water in, say, Pittsburgh, but in DC, the shift is from the burbs to the city.  No DC revenue or jobs for a stadium out in Dulles.  I'm still not sure it pays back enough, but DC might be the place it makes sense the most.

Right, but what is Danny going to do if no one puts up a freaking dime? Move the team to Richmond? Keep it in JKC? Baloney. It might make the most sense for DC, but that doesn't mean it actually makes sense. Make him pay for it.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #17: September 16, 2016, 09:37:00 PM »
At least with baseball stadiums you get 81 home games and a couple of concerts.  And they don't cost - at least not yet - a billion plus.

Right, but what is Danny going to do if no one puts up a freaking dime? Move the team to Richmond? Keep it in JKC? Baloney. It might make the most sense for DC, but that doesn't mean it actually makes sense. Make him pay for it.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #18: September 16, 2016, 09:38:21 PM »
Commuter taxes, sort of.

oddly enough, I think that it is more plausible that there's economic benefit to the DC with Washington team stadiums than there typically is in other cities.  DC finances these stadiums through bonds paid for by ticket and parking taxes.  Those taxes are paid by the MoCo, PG, Arlington, Alexandria and Fairfax residents who buy the tickets.  The argument that any restaurant and development around a park merely shifts it from other places may hold water in, say, Pittsburgh, but in DC, the shift is from the burbs to the city.  No DC revenue or jobs for a stadium out in Dulles.  I'm still not sure it pays back enough, but DC might be the place it makes sense the most.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #19: September 16, 2016, 09:42:35 PM »
oddly enough, I think that it is more plausible that there's economic benefit to the DC with Washington team stadiums than there typically is in other cities.  DC finances these stadiums through bonds paid for by ticket and parking taxes.  Those taxes are paid by the MoCo, PG, Arlington, Alexandria and Fairfax residents who buy the tickets.  The argument that any restaurant and development around a park merely shifts it from other places may hold water in, say, Pittsburgh, but in DC, the shift is from the burbs to the city.  No DC revenue or jobs for a stadium out in Dulles.  I'm still not sure it pays back enough, but DC might be the place it makes sense the most.


Unless it's possible for the city to spend $1 billion and get more of an economic impact than a football stadium hosting a dozen events a year- I'm guessing that it is

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #20: September 17, 2016, 09:02:22 AM »

Unless it's possible for the city to spend $1 billion and get more of an economic impact than a football stadium hosting a dozen events a year- I'm guessing that it is
Well, if DC could get Virginia and Maryland to fund $1B on development in DC, I'd imagine there would be better ways to spend it than a stadium.  I'm pointing out the political and governmental situation here is a bit different than, say, Denver or Indianapolis.  Core city is in different "state" taxing jurisdiction than the burbs, and has no ability to tax those who work in the city but live outside except when they spend money in the core city.  IT isn't even like New Hampshire and Mass, where Mass. can tax New Hampshire residents income if they work in Boston.  The only way to get the surrounding states to fund DC development is by these special tax districts that fund something you folks want to spend money on. 

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #21: September 17, 2016, 09:22:37 AM »
The problem is that you'll almost certainly need more revenue than you'll get from taxes on parking and concessions and, at that point, the money you need is fungible and probably better spent elsewhere

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #22: September 17, 2016, 11:03:29 AM »
The problem is that you'll almost certainly need more revenue than you'll get from taxes on parking and concessions and, at that point, the money you need is fungible and probably better spent elsewhere
so, how much is the district out on Nats Park?  How much will not be covered by the bonding paid for by the stadium ticket / food / etc... taxes?

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #23: September 17, 2016, 11:57:26 AM »
so, how much is the district out on Nats Park?  How much will not be covered by the bonding paid for by the stadium ticket / food / etc... taxes?
http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/19849/was-nationals-park-worth-it-for-dc/
About a billion and most isn't coming from the stadium

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: Re: Politics in 2016 - Send in the Clowns
« Reply #24: September 17, 2016, 01:41:48 PM »
http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/19849/was-nationals-park-worth-it-for-dc/
About a billion and most isn't coming from the stadium
I'm not sure if all his calculations are fair.  To assume the sales tax revenue associated with all park sales except for the special tax would have been generated by  DC in some other manner and is not attributable to the stadium assumes all those MoCo, Loudoun and Fairfax people would  be coming into the district to buy other forms of entertainment and dining doesn't seem right.

All this being said, I'm dead set against public finance of stadiums.  My original point still holds, though - the economics of this stadium is atypical for stadiums generally due to the complex relationship of DC to its suburbs.  The dollar shifting argument that sales tax revenues would have come into the taxing and spending entity when people otherwise spent their entertainment budget does not hold, nor is the employment issue really just another wash.

I/M/O, at some point, every property close to transportation and employment concentrations become developed.  Was the stadium and the land clearing something of a catalyst?  I lean towards catalyst (timing) rather than cause (it would have happened anyway).