Author Topic: Fire Dusty Baker!  (Read 65535 times)

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Offline imref

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #75: November 03, 2015, 12:10:14 PM »
in reading a few other articles, the big knocks on Baker is that he bunts too much, that he's not big into saber metrics, and that he puts guys with low OBPs at the top of the lineup.

But yet he's won everywhere.

Offline BeltwayBaseball

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #76: November 03, 2015, 12:10:44 PM »
Fare thee well, Ian Desmond, we will remember your time here fondly and try to forget the bad times.



ENTER THE NEW NAT'S ORDER...


Offline BigMeech

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #77: November 03, 2015, 12:12:20 PM »
"The National Nightmare" Dusty Baker.

RIP in Peace Dusty Rhodes.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #78: November 03, 2015, 12:16:24 PM »
in reading a few other articles, the big knocks on Baker is that he bunts too much, that he's not big into saber metrics, and that he puts guys with low OBPs at the top of the lineup.

But yet he's won everywhere.

He has a .526 winning percentage and one World Series appearance in 20 years, which he lost. He's such a winner that he got canned from his last job after 2 consecutive playoff appearances, both of which didn't go well.  The two jobs before that, the teams were significantly better the next season with new managers.

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #79: November 03, 2015, 12:20:50 PM »
He basically got fired from the Reds because he refused to let the GM throw the hitting coach under the buss. http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/24001371/baker-challenged-reds-gm-if-you-want-to-fire-someone-fire-me

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #80: November 03, 2015, 12:23:14 PM »
He has a .526 winning percentage and one World Series appearance in 20 years, which he lost. He's such a winner that he got canned from his last job after 2 consecutive playoff appearances, both of which didn't go well.  The two jobs before that, the teams were significantly better the next season with new managers.

do you have a better alternative, judging by your criticism above, bud black certainly falls far short? I'm not excited about baker, but people are acting like we're losing Connie Mack for Baker 

Offline BeltwayBaseball

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #81: November 03, 2015, 12:26:02 PM »
do you have a better alternative, judging by your criticism above, bud black certainly falls far short? I'm not excited about baker, but people are acting like we're losing Connie Mack for Baker

Think of it this way: We're losing Bryan Price for Matt Williams. An average manager with a good acumen for pitching, for a total absolute nightmare disaster.

It's not about the step we didn't take forward, it's the huge step back.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #82: November 03, 2015, 12:30:43 PM »
our window is already closing, Baker gets teams to the playoffs, if he burns out strasburg, oh well, if he makes the out years on scherzer worse than they already will be, those years were going to be lean anyway. I would have preferred black based on his record with relievers, but I refuse to believe that baker is that much worse in the short term.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #83: November 03, 2015, 12:31:00 PM »
do you have a better alternative, judging by your criticism above, bud black certainly falls far short? I'm not excited about baker, but people are acting like we're losing Connie Mack for Baker

Bud Black, or really almost anyone.  Baker has consistently failed to do much with very talented teams.  There is no reason to expect that a man who has failed three times with the task of getting talented teams over the playoff hump would succeed a fourth time.  Go back and look at some of those rosters.  Black did as well as could be expected with that steaming pile in San Diego, and his replacement did worse.  He's hardly a world-beater, but he's not been given the opportunity that Baker has screwed up repeatedly and is now being given again.  It's amazing.  What's next, hiring Marv Levy to coach in the Super Bowl?

Offline BeltwayBaseball

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #84: November 03, 2015, 12:34:33 PM »
our window is already closing, Baker gets teams to the playoffs, if he burns out strasburg, oh well, if he makes the out years on scherzer worse than they already will be, those years were going to be lean anyway. I would have preferred black based on his record with relievers, but I refuse to believe that baker is that much worse in the short term.

What makes you think we are going to the playoffs? Baker does not "get teams there" every single year. And we don't care about "getting there." The playoffs are a crapshoot to be sure but there are key moments when you can make decisions that change the impact of the game, see Collins leaving Harvey in. Total Dusty move. Expect Scherzer to be left in with 120 pitches and give it up on a homer. The team's glaring weaknesses are also the manager's. The bullpen this year is going to be an exercise in futility, Dusty needs an idiot proof bullpen like the Royals.

Offline NationalHeat

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #85: November 03, 2015, 12:34:46 PM »
Bud Black, or really almost anyone.  Baker has consistently failed to do much with very talented teams.  There is no reason to expect that a man who has failed three times with the task of getting talented teams over the playoff hump would succeed a fourth time.  Go back and look at some of those rosters.  Black did as well as could be expected with that steaming pile in San Diego, and his replacement did worse.  He's hardly a world-beater, but he's not been given the opportunity that Baker has screwed up repeatedly and is now being given again.  It's amazing.  What's next, hiring Marv Levy to coach in the Super Bowl?

The Padres kinda blew it down the stretch in 2010

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #86: November 03, 2015, 12:39:18 PM »
The Padres kinda blew it down the stretch in 2010

True, albeit to a team that won the World Series, and with what looked like a very average team aside from Gonzalez.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #87: November 03, 2015, 12:39:29 PM »
What makes you think we are going to the playoffs? Baker does not "get teams there" every single year. And we don't care about "getting there." The playoffs are a crapshoot to be sure but there are key moments when you can make decisions that change the impact of the game, see Collins leaving Harvey in. Total Dusty move. Expect Scherzer to be left in with 120 pitches and give it up on a homer. The team's glaring weaknesses are also the manager's. The bullpen this year is going to be an exercise in futility, Dusty needs an idiot proof bullpen like the Royals.

you're right, Baker doesn't get teams there every year. If, by your standards, that makes him a bad manager, then what, by those same standards, does that make black?

Offline BeltwayBaseball

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #88: November 03, 2015, 12:43:50 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/11/03/the-10-most-embarrassing-moments-in-nationals-history/

That was quick.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/11/03/new-nats-manager-dusty-baker-once-smoked-a-joint-with-jimi-hendrix/

Quote
In his book, Baker writes that he doesn’t think of himself so much as a baseball man as he sees himself as a music man. His favorite Hendrix song is “All Along the Watchtower.”

What a freaking joke. We get some folksy idiot who fancies himself a renaissance man instead of someone who is willing to consider their profession at the highest level with multi-billion dollar investments their calling in life. And now I also know that Dusty is a freaking music scrub, weak taste. All Along the Watchtower is such an obvious answer, let me guess, his favorite Beatles song is Hey Jude, right? This is a disgrace. Welcome the sideshow, the eternal carousel of dysfunction that is DC sports. Apparently Danny and the Lerners are in competition, "Who can drive their fans to Maryland teams fastest."

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #89: November 03, 2015, 12:44:33 PM »
you're right, Baker doesn't get teams there every year. If, by your standards, that makes him a bad manager, then what, by those same standards, does that make black?

Let's ask a different question: what suggests that Baker is a better manager than Williams? Two decades, rather than two years, of the same problems?

Offline BrandonK

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #90: November 03, 2015, 12:45:07 PM »
What a freaking joke. We get some folksy idiot who fancies himself a renaissance man instead of someone who is willing to consider their profession at the highest level with multi-billion dollar investments their calling in life. And now I also know that Dusty is a freaking music scrub, weak taste. All Along the Watchtower is such an obvious answer, let me guess, his favorite Beatles song is Hey Jude, right? This is a disgrace. Welcome the sideshow, the eternal carousel of dysfunction that is DC sports. Apparently Danny and the Lerners are in competition, "Who can drive their fans to Maryland teams fastest."

Hey Jude is a classic.

Offline BeltwayBaseball

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #91: November 03, 2015, 12:45:11 PM »
you're right, Baker doesn't get teams there every year. If, by your standards, that makes him a bad manager, then what, by those same standards, does that make black?

That's not my standards of what makes a good/bad manager, that's what you posted above. What makes a good/bad manager is strategy, you can't control the outcome and the players gotta play. Dusty is objectively bad at modern baseball strategy. At least Black knows pitching.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #92: November 03, 2015, 12:47:03 PM »
Let's ask a different question: what suggests that Baker is a better manager than Williams? Two decades, rather than two years, of the same problems?

nothing, what suggests that black is better

Offline ZIM4MVP

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #93: November 03, 2015, 12:48:12 PM »
How many years does Dusty have in him?
Could we see a "manager in waiting" scenario?
Have his views on the way to manage changed since he's been out of the league?

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #94: November 03, 2015, 12:49:02 PM »
nothing, what suggests that black is better

Doing well with pitching staffs with little talent (yes, Petco, true).  Granted, his teams couldn't hit.  That's not surprising.  They didn't have good hitters.  I'm not positing Bud Black as some managerial genius.  I'm merely suggesting that he has not had the same opportunities that Williams and Baker have both shown themselves unable to take advantage of, which (not coincidentally) are the same opportunities presented for next season.  I'd rather take a flyer on a guy who hasn't already proven that he can't do the job. 

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #95: November 03, 2015, 12:52:46 PM »
That's not my standards of what makes a good/bad manager, that's what you posted above. What makes a good/bad manager is strategy, you can't control the outcome and the players gotta play. Dusty is objectively bad at modern baseball strategy. At least BlackPetco knows pitching.

fixed for you. Objectively implies an objective standard, I'd love to know what an objective standard for judging managers would be (especially since modern thinking seems to be that a manager has a marginal impact on wins). I don't even like baker, but the reaction against him is ridiculously overblown 

Offline BrandonK

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #96: November 03, 2015, 12:57:15 PM »
How many years does Dusty have in him?
Could we see a "manager in waiting" scenario?
Have his views on the way to manage changed since he's been out of the league?

I asked -- personally, I think it would be 2-3 yrs, max. He's 66. Davey was "too old" at 67-69, so I don't see how Dusty would be any different. I guess we'll see once the coaching staff is hired. Maybe the Lerners will f that up, too.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #97: November 03, 2015, 01:02:40 PM »
fixed for you. Objectively implies an objective standard, I'd love to know what an objective standard for judging managers would be (especially since modern thinking seems to be that a manager has a marginal impact on wins). I don't even like baker, but the reaction against him is ridiculously overblown

You realize they've moved the fences in at Petco a couple of times now, right?  Obviously not enough but they have moved them in some. 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/39980186/

But let's be real here - I don't care who you hire no one is going to magically make Ryan Zimmerman durable or replace 2016 Werth with the 2008 version.  You're still going to be dealing with at least a third of your every day lineup injured or coming back from injury and depending on guys like Tyler Moore (wasted roster spot), Clint Robinson (replacement level), and Dan Uggla for major playing time.  Throw in the awful bullpen (current status: awful) and I don't see where Dusty or Bud Black are going to have an impact one way or the other. 

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #98: November 03, 2015, 01:04:47 PM »

What a freaking joke. We get some folksy idiot who fancies himself a renaissance man instead of someone who is willing to consider their profession at the highest level with multi-billion dollar investments their calling in life. And now I also know that Dusty is a freaking music scrub, weak taste. All Along the Watchtower is such an obvious answer, let me guess, his favorite Beatles song is Hey Jude, right? This is a disgrace. Welcome the sideshow, the eternal carousel of dysfunction that is DC sports. Apparently Danny and the Lerners are in competition, "Who can drive their fans to Maryland teams fastest."

:lmao: Go get some air.

Offline BeltwayBaseball

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker! (2015-2016)
« Reply #99: November 03, 2015, 01:06:04 PM »
fixed for you. Objectively implies an objective standard, I'd love to know what an objective standard for judging managers would be (especially since modern thinking seems to be that a manager has a marginal impact on wins). I don't even like baker, but the reaction against him is ridiculously overblown

Black was a 15 year starter who won over 100 games, he was thought of as one of the best pitching coaches in the MLB when he was with the 2002 Angels (who defeated Baker's giants thanks to a major pitching gaffe by Baker), and his teams pitched amongst the best on the road during San Diego's most talented years. Let's not joke around, the man knows pitching.

As for objective standard, it's pretty simple. It's mathematically measured. Look it up sometime if you don't believe me, read some of Tom Tango's stuff. The most important thing for a batter to do is just to not get out, no matter how. "OBP" is the definition of not getting out - it's getting on. Baker has gone on record for not valuing OBP, not valuing walks unless the runner is fast. Michael A Taylor will bat leadoff ever day, or at least maybe until Turner gets called up, just because he's a stealing threat despite the fact he can hardly get on base to save his life.

Baker loves bunts, which are a waste of precious outs (not just a modern thought, see one of the greatest of all time Earl Weaver). In all but the rarest of situations do you actually bunt. Baker is also known to be stiff about bullpen roles. It's inefficiency, you don't save your best bullet for an arbitrary lineup at a certain time, you use it against the toughest competition.

This is mathematically, proven, objectively bad strategy. Matt Williams used steroids, but ironically, Dusty Baker is Matt Williams on steroids.