Author Topic: Fire Dusty Baker!  (Read 64266 times)

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Online bluestreak

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1450: October 20, 2017, 08:34:22 PM »
Baker failed in the playoffs. Again. For like the 30th freaking time. He is what he is. If you want Dusty to be the manager, then you're saying you don't care about postseason success. You're happy being the Capitals of baseball.

I like watching baseball. I like watching a good team with players I like win a lot of games. I would like the teams I follow to win in the postseason and if they don’t win I am disappointed. But even if this happens I still like watching a good team play baseball and win a lot of games. A championship does not change that for me.
I believe that it is very likely that whoever is brought in next year will win less games than the Nats won this year. I believe it is more likely they won’t make the playoffs. And I believe that no matter how many games they win they will still have no better than the same 1 in 5 chance of winning the World Series and a 50/50 chance of winning any particular series.
Saying that being happy that the team you follow wins a lot of games is certainly not the same as saying you don’t care about the postseason. That’s patently absurd.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1451: October 20, 2017, 08:39:56 PM »
Buck Showalter.
???
I like watching baseball. I like watching a good team with players I like win a lot of games. I would like the teams I follow to win in the postseason and if they don’t win I am disappointed. But even if this happens I still like watching a good team play baseball and win a lot of games. A championship does not change that for me.
I believe that it is very likely that whoever is brought in next year will win less games than the Nats won this year. I believe it is more likely they won’t make the playoffs. And I believe that no matter how many games they win they will still have no better than the same 1 in 5 chance of winning the World Series and a 50/50 chance of winning any particular series.
Saying that being happy that the team you follow wins a lot of games is certainly not the same as saying you don’t care about the postseason. That’s patently absurd.

You literally just said that.  We have six seasons of watching a good team and absolutely nothing of note to show for it.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1452: October 20, 2017, 08:46:43 PM »
Baker failed in the playoffs. Again. For like the 30th freaking time. He is what he is. If you want Dusty to be the manager, then you're saying you don't care about postseason success. You're happy being the Capitals of baseball.
Slate is right. You can't be satisfied with getting to the post season. They need a younger manager who understands percentages and knows how to maneuver when needed. They may lose some motivation that Dusty was able to provide but they need to try something different.

Online bluestreak

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1453: October 20, 2017, 08:51:55 PM »
Slate is right. You can't be satisfied with getting to the post season. They need a younger manager who understands percentages and knows how to maneuver when needed. They may lose some motivation that Dusty was able to provide but they need to try something different.

Fair enough. I guess I just disagree that that six seasons of winning baseball is “nothing to show for it”.  Three quarters of baseball fanbases would trade places with us in a heartbeat. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1454: October 20, 2017, 08:58:50 PM »
Fair enough. I guess I just disagree that that six seasons of winning baseball is “nothing to show for it”.  Three quarters of baseball fanbases would trade places with us in a heartbeat. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
If you told those fanbases that they would get to see one of the best assemlbages of talent in the last 30 years and have the second most wins  in the last six seasons of any other team, and not get out of the divisional round of the playoffs, largely due to the ineptitude of their managers making incredibly stupid decisions in crucial moments of the playoffs, no, I don't think they would trade places with us. I don't think there is a single fan base that would swap franchise and ownership with DC right now.

Online bluestreak

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1455: October 20, 2017, 09:13:12 PM »
If you told those fanbases that they would get to see one of the best assemlbages of talent in the last 30 years and have the second most wins  in the last six seasons of any other team, and not get out of the divisional round of the playoffs, largely due to the ineptitude of their managers making incredibly stupid decisions in crucial moments of the playoffs, no, I don't think they would trade places with us. I don't think there is a single fan base that would swap franchise and ownership with DC right now.

O’s

Offline whytev

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1456: October 20, 2017, 09:15:33 PM »
If you told those fanbases that they would get to see one of the best assemlbages of talent in the last 30 years and have the second most wins  in the last six seasons of any other team, and not get out of the divisional round of the playoffs, largely due to the ineptitude of their managers making incredibly stupid decisions in crucial moments of the playoffs, no, I don't think they would trade places with us. I don't think there is a single fan base that would swap franchise and ownership with DC right now.

Sadly I can think of quite a few that would swap owners.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1457: October 20, 2017, 10:12:39 PM »
Sadly I can think of quite a few that would swap owners.
Owners, but not the maddening frustration of being unable to accomplish anything.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1458: October 20, 2017, 11:05:21 PM »
With the young talent in the system, the Werth contract rolling off, and two aces locked in for the foreseeable future, I don't see the window closing. The Harper window is closing, so they need to mitigate that. This is an interesting move. I have mixed feelings. I have never liked Dusty, but it seemed that his ability to be a players manager was what this talented team needed to at least perform during the regular season, stay loose and focused. I can second guess a lot of Dusty moves, but he wasn't the one failing to hit. Any really critical decisions shouldn't be left to a manager anyway. That seems ridiculously old school. The organization has the responsibility to make sure things are managed within certain parameters if they are seen as important (e.g. decisions on starters, when certain bullpen guys should be used, etc.) If there is a fundamental baseball disagreement on things, then you can't let the manager go rogue. Everything else looks like second guessing and 20/20 hindsight. If the brain trust didn't want Gio to start or Max to relieve, then it shouldn't have happened anyway. But doubtful that was the case.

This is one of those "standard decisions". When you have an expectation to progress to the next round and fail, you dump the manager. Rizzo getting axed would be the next "standard decision." Doesn't always seem fair or logical, but it happens all the time. They just better have a quality replacement in mind, or they risk blowing up the chemistry, which seemed like the one thing Dusty was good at handling. If on the other hand, certain key players were less than supportive, then that could have factored in as well.
My thought on this is that, if you thought Dusty Baker was a good hire 2 years ago, what has he done that you did not expect to convince you that he was not as good of a manager now as you thought you hired?   

2 years ago, you knew his record and his reputation.  You knew he had a track record of not being the greatest in game, single game manager.  You knew you were hiring a guy who could produce good regular season records.   He's produced the very good regular season records. He's done a great job of adjusting to team weaknesses in the regular season. He found a way around a weak bullpen the first 3 months of the year, and he put guys like Wilmer Difo and Adrian Sanchez in a position to succeed after they had had mediocre minor league careers.  He had to deal with 14 different outfielders this season but made it functional.  He helped to get value out of Solis this year when he had a rotten first half.  Even in the playoffs, he showed he was more receptive to "modern" thinking when he did things like bring in Scherzer in relief.   So what has he done to now convince you he's not the guy you hired or even something better? 

I was skeptical of the original hire, but if you thought he was worth hiring, I don't see what it is that he's done to convince you he's not the 'droid you were looking for.

Offline HattoriHanzo

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1459: October 20, 2017, 11:16:37 PM »
Slate is right. You can't be satisfied with getting to the post season. They need a younger manager who understands percentages and knows how to maneuver when needed. They may lose some motivation that Dusty was able to provide but they need to try something different.

The nats also need an owner that won't meddle and give the GM/front office a blank check to do what it takes to win like the dodgers. You never hear them being cheap and the front office brain power that they have accumulated is staggering. As soon as a smart gm/front office guy has been fired unfairly, the dodgers pounce and snap him up. At dc, it's rizzo and no one else. If rizzo is offered a better deal elsewhere, I could see him leaving the meddling lerner family behind.

The window everyone has dreaded is here. Harper will go to LA as they can pay and not haggle with deferred deals and can improve their corner OF situation and more importantly, win titles. Pops will be able to travel and see him play more often which is a big deal to him.

Offline Smithian

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1460: October 21, 2017, 04:15:05 AM »
I was skeptical of the original hire, but if you thought he was worth hiring, I don't see what it is that he's done to convince you he's not the 'droid you were looking for.
I agree the results have been better than expected and I assumed he would and should be back. But I do go back to what I posted a couple days ago:
I don't think Dusty Baker has won 1,800+ games without knowing how to manage a game. I think we have to defer to Rizzo and Nats management on whether he has done his most important job of managing the lockerroom and continues to have the stamina and drive to devote the needed energy to his job away from the dugout.
We don't know what was happening the 21 hours a day away from the dugout. I wonder if he his age was chipping away at his ability to give a 24/7 effort. I don't have many better ideas as to why they'd fire a manager who had won 192 games these past two seasons.

I also still think managing in baseball isn't close to the importance of football or basketball so unless they convince Acta to come back for pennies on the dollar I won't care too much who it is.

Offline Copecwby20

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1461: October 21, 2017, 06:18:30 AM »
Fair enough. I guess I just disagree that that six seasons of winning baseball is “nothing to show for it”.  Three quarters of baseball fanbases would trade places with us in a heartbeat. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

You're the type of guy who counts a "Yay I showed up" trophy as an award aren't you? You probably have a basement full of framed "Perfect Attendance" certificates.

Offline tswphoto

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1462: October 21, 2017, 07:54:16 AM »
???
You literally just said that.  We have six seasons of watching a good team and absolutely nothing of note to show for it.

We have six seasons--972 games--of watching a good team. I don't score that as "nothing."  The post season failures have all been disappointing, for different reasons, and I certainly hope we can advance past a NLDS, but baseball's everyday regular season is my primary interest; the rest is bonus, good or bad.   

Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1463: October 21, 2017, 09:28:06 AM »
We have six seasons--972 games--of watching a good team. I don't score that as "nothing."  The post season failures have all been disappointing, for different reasons, and I certainly hope we can advance past a NLDS, but baseball's everyday regular season is my primary interest; the rest is bonus, good or bad.   
That's sad. The whole point of sports is to win championships. Not yet excited because you beat up on the bad teams in the division.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1464: October 21, 2017, 09:37:05 AM »
That's sad. The whole point of sports is to win championships. Not yet excited because you beat up on the bad teams in the division.
But only one team wins.  So you want teams to compete.  What is confounding is that they have had the home advantage in 4 series and have lost each one.  Even if just a 50-50 chance that is not easy to do.  My math shows they would have a 6.25% chance of doing that even if not considered the better team (which they were in most of the series). Even the Dodgers made it to the NLCS last year after several NLDS losses. 

Offline imref

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1465: October 21, 2017, 09:38:17 AM »
Manny Acta's record for most Nationals games managed will stand for at least another 2 and a half years.

Offline tswphoto

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1466: October 21, 2017, 09:41:26 AM »
That's sad. The whole point of sports is to win championships. Not yet excited because you beat up on the bad teams in the division.

Judging by the ridiculously plentiful evidence here, you are the miserable one. I’m ok, thanks.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1467: October 21, 2017, 09:53:50 AM »
  We have six seasons of watching a good team and absolutely nothing of note to show for it.

That is so absolutely freaking stupid.  We have 98, 97, 96, and 95 win seasons.

Offline LoveAngelos

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1468: October 21, 2017, 09:58:55 AM »
Whoever they bring in will be someone willing to work for "peanuts"


The Lerner's will not pay for a top flight candidate. Dusty had his limitations as far as  in game strategies but he was the best we could get for the price.

The whole thing is a joke. May as well bring in Pappelbon...at least trips to the mound will be exciting

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1469: October 21, 2017, 09:59:43 AM »
I doubt the Lerners will pay for someone that has a ring 

This is where the whole issue gets so convoluted.  If Dusty was let go  because of the "window" thing ... that Old Man Lerner might die without a championship and Dusty can't do it ... well, Dusty was cheap.  Are they dumb enough not to get the connection: cheap manager, no championship.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1470: October 21, 2017, 10:01:16 AM »
May as well bring in Pappelbon...at least trips to the mound will be exciting
For exciting trips to the mound, hire Werth.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1471: October 21, 2017, 10:04:09 AM »
I don't think there is a single fan base that would swap franchise and ownership with DC right now.

Another completely absurd proposition.  There are surely more than a dozen. Probably as many as 20.

Offline LoveAngelos

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1472: October 21, 2017, 10:06:02 AM »
Yeah Ray if the pitcher knows that either the  Werewerth or DC Strangler is coming out to the mound if he does not pitch well it will keep the pitcher on his toes....may even give Gio some intestinal fortitude

Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1473: October 21, 2017, 10:36:49 AM »
But only one team wins.  So you want teams to compete.  What is confounding is that they have had the home advantage in 4 series and have lost each one.  Even if just a 50-50 chance that is not easy to do.  My math shows they would have a 6.25% chance of doing that even if not considered the better team (which they were in most of the series). Even the Dodgers made it to the NLCS last year after several NLDS losses. 

They haven't even competed.

Online bluestreak

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Re: Re: Fire Dusty Baker!
« Reply #1474: October 21, 2017, 10:43:20 AM »
You're the type of guy who counts a "Yay I showed up" trophy as an award aren't you? You probably have a basement full of framed "Perfect Attendance" certificates.

I’m a fan. I’m not the one playing in these games. What I care about in my actual life and what I do in sports teams are completely different. It would probably do some people here some good to remember that.