Author Topic: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF  (Read 34430 times)

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Offline bluestreak

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #275: April 17, 2018, 12:34:48 AM »
Robles won’t require surgery on his elbow.

Offline imref

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #276: April 17, 2018, 08:10:02 AM »
Robles won’t require surgery on his elbow.

That's great news.

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“So what we thought was going to be a year -- it might not take that long, so the prognosis was good. He’s still going to have a long recovery, but it’s not going to be as long as we thought.”

So there was no tear in the elbow?

“There’s no tear,” Martinez confirmed. “He’s got good strength, so we’re hoping to get him back, maybe not for a couple months, but the good news is there’s no tear.”

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #277: April 17, 2018, 12:09:12 PM »
I don't say this to be glib, because I would never wish any player to be injured. But I do think the impact for the Nats is negligible and almost makes things easier. The Nats were purely playing a game with his service time so they gain a year of team control, and now they'll get it without having to go through the bad faith exercise of keeping him in AAA where he doesn't belong.

So while it stinks that he was injured, at least it happened during a half-season he was destined to be wasting anyways.

Offline imref

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #278: April 17, 2018, 12:13:19 PM »
I don't say this to be glib, because I would never wish any player to be injured. But I do think the impact for the Nats is negligible and almost makes things easier. The Nats were purely playing a game with his service time so they gain a year of team control, and now they'll get it without having to go through the bad faith exercise of keeping him in AAA where he doesn't belong.

So while it stinks that he was injured, at least it happened during a half-season he was destined to be wasting anyways.

I agree, but if he was continuing to rake in AAA while MAT is hitting in the .100s, he could have helped sooner rather than later.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #279: April 17, 2018, 12:13:48 PM »
I don't say this to be glib, because I would never wish any player to be injured. But I do think the impact for the Nats is negligible and almost makes things easier. The Nats were purely playing a game with his service time so they gain a year of team control, and now they'll get it without having to go through the bad faith exercise of keeping him in AAA where he doesn't belong.

So while it stinks that he was injured, at least it happened during a half-season he was destined to be wasting anyways.

Interesting...so we say Zimm continuing to steal money, and oxygen, if he were to refuse a trade is simply "exercising his contractual rights", but when the Nats "exercise their contractual rights" they are acting in bad faith...


Offline Slateman

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #280: April 17, 2018, 12:22:08 PM »
Get him healthy and get him ready to join us in October/November

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #281: April 17, 2018, 12:30:03 PM »
Interesting...so we say Zimm continuing to steal money, and oxygen, if he were to refuse a trade is simply "exercising his contractual rights", but when the Nats "exercise their contractual rights" they are acting in bad faith...

I don't totally understand your point about Zimm, but yes every team is acting in bad faith when they keep guys in the minors to gain the extra year. That's precisely why they make up public excuses everyone knows are baloney, because if they told the truth about gaming the service clock they would be subject to a grievance from the MLBPA.

If they weren't acting in bad faith they'd be able to tell the truth about what they're doing.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #282: April 17, 2018, 12:30:32 PM »
Get him healthy and get him ready to join us in October/November

Optimistic.  :couch:

Online PowerBoater69

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #283: April 17, 2018, 12:47:17 PM »
I don't say this to be glib, because I would never wish any player to be injured. But I do think the impact for the Nats is negligible and almost makes things easier. The Nats were purely playing a game with his service time so they gain a year of team control, and now they'll get it without having to go through the bad faith exercise of keeping him in AAA where he doesn't belong.

So while it stinks that he was injured, at least it happened during a half-season he was destined to be wasting anyways.

Service time could still be extended a year, instead of brining him up in May and starting the clock the Nats can bring him up in September this year and June next year, adding a season of control while he's still in his prime.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #284: April 17, 2018, 12:50:30 PM »
I don't totally understand your point about Zimm, but yes every team is acting in bad faith when they keep guys in the minors to gain the extra year. That's precisely why they make up public excuses everyone knows are baloney, because if they told the truth about gaming the service clock they would be subject to a grievance from the MLBPA.

If they weren't acting in bad faith they'd be able to tell the truth about what they're doing.

It's no secret...if the MLBPA wanted to pitch a nag they would fight to change the collective bargaining process...it's designed to allow this.  It's a contractual right...

The bit about Zimm was folks saying him declining a trade if presented to him was his right, which it is...as much as we may dislike it.  He's not gaming the system either...

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #285: April 17, 2018, 12:59:09 PM »
It's no secret...if the MLBPA wanted to pitch a nag they would fight to change the collective bargaining process...it's designed to allow this.  It's a contractual right...

The bit about Zimm was folks saying him declining a trade if presented to him was his right, which it is...as much as we may dislike it.  He's not gaming the system either...

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/wn33v4/the-kris-bryant-situation-as-explained-by-a-labor-lawyer
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As to the merits of that grievance: The best argument for the union is that the service time rules and the nature of the competitive enterprise of baseball give rise to an implied requirement that teams act in good faith in terms of when and whether to promote players to the majors. "Good faith," in this case, means that teams honestly attempt to use the players in their minor-league system to build a competitive big league baseball team and let the service time chips fall where they may from those baseball decisions. (Scott Boras, it should be noted, also believes this is the union's argument.)

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If the Cubs believed they had no obligation to act in good faith, what point would there be in protesting so vigorously that Bryant needs to work on his defensive footwork or his approach on two-strike changeups low and away or his autograph hand or whatever? Why, if the Cubs are permitted to do whatever they damn well please with Bryant's service time, don't they just say they're doing this so they can keep him in the fold for an extra year?

The evidence that teams are acting in bad faith is obvious: no team has ever told the truth about why they're promoting these players just after they gain a year of service time. If you want to be argumentative, go right ahead, but this is so obvious I don't really see any point in responding. The Bryant grievance is actually still "pending" which is laughable.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #286: April 17, 2018, 01:12:54 PM »
It's no secret...if the MLBPA wanted to pitch a nag they would fight to change the collective bargaining process...it's designed to allow this.  It's a contractual right...


MLBPA wants older/long term players to make as much money as they can.  It drives up everybody's salary.   No competition from the young/lower paid players is a way to do that.    Same reason the entrenched NBA/NFL players like young studs goin 'to college.    As a former member of the USW, it's one of the things unions do.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #287: April 17, 2018, 01:25:21 PM »
MLBPA wants older/long term players to make as much money as they can.  It drives up everybody's salary. 

It will actually be interesting to see if this continues - seems like teams have gotten too smart and are unwilling to overpay for vets anymore or tack on a bunch of unnecessary years into a player's late-30s. Wait until the Dodgers start rolling off some of Friedman's inherited bad money. If even the Yankees are relying on pre-arb talent and staying out of the bidding wars, it's going to end up affecting payrolls.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #288: April 17, 2018, 01:25:57 PM »
It will actually be interesting to see if this continues - seems like teams have gotten too smart and are unwilling to overpay for vets anymore or tack on a bunch of unnecessary years into a player's late-30s. Wait until the Dodgers start rolling off some of Friedman's inherited bad money. If even the Yankees are relying on pre-arb talent and staying out of the bidding wars, it's going to end up affecting payrolls.

This spring may have been the start of it.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #289: April 17, 2018, 01:42:15 PM »
Having Robles back in 8 weeks or so would put him back in mid-June and give him a month in AAA.  That let's us move Mikey T at the deadline if he is showing anything.  I'm not to worried about MAT if we have Goodwin around and Stevenson for depth.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #290: April 17, 2018, 01:57:47 PM »
Teams that manipulate service time are clearly acting in bad faith as others have said , but are operating within the rules as currently constituted. That being said, gaming the system to get an extra year of cheap labor out of your superstar of the future might backfire. We have no idea how Bryant felt about what the Cubs did and probably won’t until he hits free agency. But manipulating the system to keep from paying someone what they are worth is an easy way to alienate them for when they eventually have the upper hand.
Plus on the moral side of it trying to screw around with a 21 year old kid who you gave a bonus of $250,000 even though he is worth tens of millions in value isn’t the best look. Regardless of the technicalities.

A lot different that discussing a contract between a multi-millionaire (Zim) and a billionaire.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #291: April 17, 2018, 02:12:14 PM »
Is Zimmerman sittin' out or battin' .113 making $20,000,000 a year gaming the system?   There is no good guy/bad guy in this.      The union and management are in collusion against the 21 year old kid.    It's in both (MLPA/management) their interests to have it this way. 

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #292: April 17, 2018, 02:42:05 PM »
Teams that manipulate service time are clearly acting in bad faith as others have said , but are operating within the rules as currently constituted. That being said, gaming the system to get an extra year of cheap labor out of your superstar of the future might backfire. We have no idea how Bryant felt about what the Cubs did and probably won’t until he hits free agency. But manipulating the system to keep from paying someone what they are worth is an easy way to alienate them for when they eventually have the upper hand.
Plus on the moral side of it trying to screw around with a 21 year old kid who you gave a bonus of $250,000 even though he is worth tens of millions in value isn’t the best look. Regardless of the technicalities.

A lot different that discussing a contract between a multi-millionaire (Zim) and a billionaire.

i doubt krys bryant will care when the cubs offer him $200 million dollars. cubs played the game all teams do.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #293: April 17, 2018, 03:03:19 PM »

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/wn33v4/the-kris-bryant-situation-as-explained-by-a-labor-lawyer
The evidence that teams are acting in bad faith is obvious: no team has ever told the truth about why they're promoting these players just after they gain a year of service time. If you want to be argumentative, go right ahead, but this is so obvious I don't really see any point in responding. The Bryant grievance is actually still "pending" which is laughable.

From a labor lawyer...of course...

Implied requirement?  Scott Boras Interpretation?  Both of those are somewhat laughable...

I'd rely on the the letter of the agreement.  If they CAN'T do this...this issue would not still be pending.  They can do whatever they want regarding service time and both sides know it...

Offline dcpatti

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #294: April 17, 2018, 03:44:47 PM »
From a labor lawyer...of course...

Implied requirement?  Scott Boras Interpretation?  Both of those are somewhat laughable...

I'd rely on the the letter of the agreement.  If they CAN'T do this...this issue would not still be pending.  They can do whatever they want regarding service time and both sides know it...

This.  There's no "bad faith" in a team wanting to delay that big payday as long as possible, nor in waiting a few extra weeks to call a guy up so that they can push the payday back.  That's just maximizing profits like any business tries to do.  The MLBPA is perfectly able to negotiate this every time they revisit the CBA. Until then, there is nothing at all "in bad faith" about following an agreement into which both parties entered voluntarily.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #295: April 17, 2018, 04:10:10 PM »
This.  There's no "bad faith" in a team wanting to delay that big payday as long as possible, nor in waiting a few extra weeks to call a guy up so that they can push the payday back.  That's just maximizing profits like any business tries to do.  The MLBPA is perfectly able to negotiate this every time they revisit the CBA. Until then, there is nothing at all "in bad faith" about following an agreement into which both parties entered voluntarily.

Why not just admit it then? If it was above board you wouldn’t have all these teams going through the machinations of coming up with excuses. It can be permitted but still not right.

And I don’t think the grievance would still be pending if the Cubs were without question in the right.

Offline dcpatti

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #296: April 17, 2018, 04:29:38 PM »
Why not just admit it then? If it was above board you wouldn’t have all these teams going through the machinations of coming up with excuses. It can be permitted but still not right.

And I don’t think the grievance would still be pending if the Cubs were without question in the right.

The Braves have been pretty up front with their stance on not starting Acuna's service clock, and while the Nats haven't come out and said they had the same plans with Robles, no one actually expected him to displace MAT and no one thinks he should be warming a bench.  Just because the Cubs mishandled the PR with Bryant doesn't mean clubs act in bad faith when they manage service time down to the day. The team needs to build the best team possible within the budget they have, so extending a player's "cheap" window by a year gives them a better chance at that.

 The reason the Bryant grievance is still pending is that the Cubs are technically in the right, but MLB doesn't want to publicly shame the MLBPA for not negotiating the loophole away at their last opportunity, and Bryant's agent won't drop it because it could be useful leverage if they ever have to go in front of an arbitration panel. 

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #297: April 17, 2018, 04:54:01 PM »
The Braves have been pretty up front with their stance on not starting Acuna's service clock
LOL RLY?

https://www.myajc.com/sports/baseball/braves-phenom-acuna-reassigned-minor-league-camp/ouJ6jgTTlW1xRAlMLH4o4O/

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“That’s part of the game. You’re going to get criticized in these jobs no matter what you do,” Anthopoulos said after the announcement that Acuna was reassigned to minor league camp. “One way or the other, we have to do what feels right, what’s the right path and right development path for the player. In the long run, that’s what’s going to carry the day.”

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Anthopoulos insisted it was for development purposes, that the team wants to make sure they do the right thing for the consensus No. 1 prospect in baseball, a player many believe will soon become the next Braves superstar.

“He had a great spring,” Anthopoulos said. “The one thing we said was that we’d keep an open mind, but we did talk a lot about (how) he ran through the minor leagues last year. Just from a developmental standpoint, to go through three levels the way we did. The more we talked about it from an organizational standpoint, having more development time – no one’s ever been hurt by that. ...

“We feel like it’s probably best overall, from a philosophical standpoint, to get him more development time.”

Offline Slateman

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #298: April 18, 2018, 10:42:22 AM »
Acuna is hitting .175. Pretty sure he needs more time.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Follow the Prospects: Victor Robles, OF
« Reply #299: April 18, 2018, 11:35:04 AM »
Acuna is hitting .175. Pretty sure he needs more time.
Yea. 15 Ks in 40 ABs.

He's no Rhys Hoskins.