_sturt_ing over: A DH poll.

[whytev]

This is not a survey over if the DH is better or not.

This is only a survey to test _sturt_'s premise that having the rules be different in each league is a blemish on the game.

[UMDNats]

I think it would be better if they had the same rules but it doesn't bother me and don't think it's any kind of mark on the game. The poll is too cut-and-dry.

[whytev]

I think it would be better if they had the same rules but it doesn't bother me and don't think it's any kind of mark on the game. The poll is too cut-and-dry.

That's why I put "don't mind" on the one side.

The poll represents _sturt_'s view.  He's saying it's a mark on the game.  This isn't a measure of slight preference on his side.  It's a measure of something terribly horribly wrong!  Or something we all don't mind.  Your choice!

[_sturt_]

whytev, this isn't "sturt-ing" over b/c I didn't even ask this question. I have outlined for you in the other thread my line of rationale for why this current mindset is going to continue to corrode over time. You are welcome to replicate my polling at, if I recall correctly, 23 different teams' boards, but the question was, essentially, whether you'd rather have the other side's way of playing the game imposed on you, or have a committee make a recommendation on a DH compromise rule.

[Natsinpwc]

This is not a survey over if the DH is better or not.

This is only a survey to test _sturt_'s premise that having the rules be different in each league is a blemish on the game.

Hasn't bothered me for the last forty years or so.  Would rather have the DH down away with in the AL but that's not going to happen. Bigger things to worry about in the world. (And in baseball).

[whytev]

whytev, this isn't "sturt-ing" over b/c I didn't even ask this question. I have outlined for you in the other thread my line of rationale for why this current mindset is going to continue to corrode over time. You are welcome to replicate my polling at, if I recall correctly, 23 different teams' boards, but the question was, essentially, whether you'd rather have the other side's way of playing the game imposed on you, or have a committee make a recommendation on a DH compromise rule.

Your posts are long and you repeat yourself, and you always sneak this point in at the end.  Your assembling a committee for a problem that I don't believe is actually a problem.

[_sturt_]

Repeating? Guilty as charged.

Begs the question, though. That is, if you're interested in balance, and I'm increasingly less certain of that...

Why would one repeat himself if he weren't being prompted to do so?

Your post provides another example of the same: Have you not already said you don't believe it is a problem?

I think you have.

And in fact, we might have moved on from that if you'd engage by addressing/attacking some point in my logic rather that... yes... merely repeating your conclusion.

[whytev]

Repeating? Guilty as charged.

Begs the question, though. That is, if you're interested in balance, and I'm increasingly less certain of that...

Why would one repeat himself if he weren't being prompted to do so?

Your post provides another example of the same: Have you not already said you don't believe it is a problem?

I think you have.

And in fact, we might have moved on from that if you'd engage by addressing/attacking some point in my logic rather that... yes... merely repeating your conclusion.

I conceded that your logic is sound.  Your premise is what I am attacking.

Here is a logical argument for you.

Premise: Baseball is a business, dependent on having people who are fans generally satisfied with the product.

Premise: The people on this board represent more-or-less a working, reasonable, cross-section of contemporary baseball fans.

Premise: This is a reasonable place to assess huge assertions about the structure of the game, for example, if the DH inconsistency is a giant problem that turns off fans.

Conclusion: A survey on this board of that very assertion is a good test of whether the premise in your argument is reasonable, or bonkers-crazy.

[Clever]

I'll always believe that the DH ought to be eviscerated but I don't think it's something to get worked up about and write message board posts.

[welch]

Ought to have the same rules, and ought to put the DH back with some of the other obsolete and weird rules. Such as:

- catching a fly ball on one hop is an out
- umpire is to be given a soft chair near home plate plus the choicest food
- batter could request a high or low strike-zone and pitch

See: http://m.mlb.com/cutfour/2015/05/21/124363454/10-bizarre-rules-from-baseballs-past?partnerId=as_mlb_20150522_46274156&adbid=948894135142226&adbpl=fb&adbpr=196554717042842

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Well, the NL and one of the NPB leagues are the last of the non-DH leagues in the world.  If you want to get to uniformity, then you have a lot more leagues to turn around if you go back to pre-DH rules.

[welch]

Well, the NL and one of the NPB leagues are the last of the non-DH leagues in the world.  If you want to get to uniformity, then you have a lot more leagues to turn around if you go back to pre-DH rules.

I think that the other leagues would switch back to "real" baseball if the AL did. MLB is the "king of baseball" world-wide...why else do we call it a "world series"? Others should get rid of aluminum and graphite and composite bats, as well.

The best youth ballplayers usually become pitchers. Some move on to field positions, but most NLB pitchers were good players until someone said: "You pitch and do nothing else".

Single best baseball player I grew up with was a pitcher who also played 3B in American Legion ball. He made our starting basketball team as a 7th grader, and the starting team at Northwestern HS as a 10th grader. All-around athlete. He also was Washington Post All-Met QB as an 11th grader, and probably as a 12th grader also. Hardest throwing kid in PG County when we were 12; had also mastered a hard curve and a slow curve.

Let these guys be athletes. In the olden dayes, Camilo Pascual hit over .300 in 1958; Walter Johnson hit .400 in 1925. Judging from the stats, they must have used Johnson as a pinch-hitter once in a while. The young pitcher who was expected to be "the next Walter Johnson", a pitcher who held the World Series record for consecutive scoreless innings for more than 40 years, was Babe Ruth. Let them hit and field and run the bases...Max Scherzer showed it can be done.

[whytev]

I think that the other leagues would switch back to "real" baseball if the AL did. MLB is the "king of baseball" world-wide...why else do we call it a "world series"? Others should get rid of aluminum and graphite and composite bats, as well.

The best youth ballplayers usually become pitchers. Some move on to field positions, but most NLB pitchers were good players until someone said: "You pitch and do nothing else".

Single best baseball player I grew up with was a pitcher who also played 3B in American Legion ball. He made our starting basketball team as a 7th grader, and the starting team at Northwestern HS as a 10th grader. All-around athlete. He also was Washington Post All-Met QB as an 11th grader, and probably as a 12th grader also. Hardest throwing kid in PG County when we were 12; had also mastered a hard curve and a slow curve.

Let these guys be athletes. In the olden dayes, Camilo Pascual hit over .300 in 1958; Walter Johnson hit .400 in 1925. Judging from the stats, they must have used Johnson as a pinch-hitter once in a while. The young pitcher who was expected to be "the next Walter Johnson", a pitcher who held the World Series record for consecutive scoreless innings for more than 40 years, was Babe Ruth. Let them hit and field and run the bases...Max Scherzer showed it can be done.

SANITY!

[Minty Fresh]

Well, the NL and one of the NPB leagues are the last of the non-DH leagues in the world.  If you want to get to uniformity, then you have a lot more leagues to turn around if you go back to pre-DH rules.

[Minty Fresh]

The young pitcher who was expected to be "the next Walter Johnson", a pitcher who held the World Series record for consecutive scoreless innings for more than 40 years, was Babe Ruth.

And if they had the DH back then, Ruth could've been a pitcher AND still hit all those homers.

[_sturt_]

Well, the NL and one of the NPB leagues are the last of the non-DH leagues in the world.  If you want to get to uniformity, then you have a lot more leagues to turn around if you go back to pre-DH rules.

I've heard this, and it's true.

But, of course, it leaves out that the other leagues are all developmental leagues posited on helping players get to the highest leagues in their nations.

In other words... we all realize this... the other leagues simply take advantage of the DH because in both US and Japan one of the two leagues plays with a DH, and concurrently because there is reason... there's that word again... it seems to keep popping up in my posts... there is reason for trying to allow as many players as possible an opportunity to develop themselves into major league talent.

In other words... if the pure DH rule went away tomorrow... everyone would recalibrate their leagues' rules to replicate what the top-most leagues do. Because? Because that's their job... to develop players for the top-most professional leagues.

No mystery. Not sure what value it is to anyone to ignore the whole of the story.

[whytev]

I've heard this, and it's true.

But, of course, it leaves out that the other leagues are all developmental leagues posited on helping players get to the highest leagues in their nations.

In other words... we all realize this... the other leagues simply take advantage of the DH because in both US and Japan one of the two leagues plays with a DH, and concurrently because there is reason... there's that word again... it seems to keep popping up in my posts... there is reason for trying to allow as many players as possible an opportunity to develop themselves into major league talent.

In other words... if the pure DH rule went away tomorrow... everyone would recalibrate their leagues' rules to replicate what the top-most leagues do. Because? Because that's their job... to develop players for the top-most professional leagues.

No mystery. Not sure what value it is to anyone to ignore the whole of the story.

Before there was any DH, pitchers were much better hitters. I argue that their development is getting damaged by being forced to choose one or the other at almost every level.

[_sturt_]

Before there was any DH, pitchers were much better hitters. I argue that their development is getting damaged by being forced to choose one or the other at almost every level.

They've always been "bad enough" that the DH had been suggested and bandied about through about 60 years or so before it was finally implemented.

But you're right... I think people fail to recognize that point that pitchers just aren't getting the fuller development as they once did.

You know what would solve that?

The Duck Hunter DH. *wink*

[whytev]

Voting locked. Done with this. Can't believe I took the bait.

[UMDNats]

lets just make the DL in both the NL and AL like it should be, let the OWGs write hot take columns about how this is ruining baseball, profit

[UMDNats]

let's just ask our minor league pitchers to work on being good hitters, too, because the hardcore (i.e., better fans than AL fans) fans in the NL need them to be better. should solve everything imo

[Minty Fresh]

lets just make the DL in both the NL and AL like it should be, let the OWGs write hot take columns about how this is ruining baseball, profit

[OldChelsea]

Oh did the NL get the DH when I wasn't paying attention?

Like the proverbial bad penny, the topic just won't go away - from MLB.com's Morning Lineup this past weekend: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/162124094?partnerId=ed-9986029-866502943

[whytev]

Like the proverbial bad penny, the topic just won't go away - from MLB.com's Morning Lineup this past weekend: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/162124094?partnerId=ed-9986029-866502943

PLEASE NO.

[Mr Clean]

PLEASE NO.

The answer to the Werth/Zim conundrum.