Author Topic: Unofficial Compromise DH Rule Testing Lab thread (Nats fans edition)  (Read 16217 times)

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Online Natsinpwc

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Have I showed you my glow-in-the-dark cat hat concept?  Never lose your cat again...
Now that sounds cool.

Offline whytev

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(d) I won’t belabor this one b/c I’ve already spoken to it as much as I have… it simply is incoherent, and thus nonsensical, to play one game that has one championship by two different rules. Not only is it not heard-of in any other sport, but for good reason. That championship tournament ends up being a farce as a result. As opposed to conducting a best-of-seven phases experiment to determine which team is superior, what MLB is actually doing is conducting a best-of-seven phases experiment that only tells us which form of the game is more likely to have the desired result.

I was going to write a point by point rebuttal of your post, until I got to the end and saw this.

NOBODY agrees with this point.  Not AL fans, not NL fans, not fans of this team and posters on this board.

Some people hate the DH.  Some people prefer it.  Nobody thinks that no matter what, we have to make the rules the same in both leagues, even if it means adopting the position we personally don't like.  You and I both dislike the DH.  So dislike it.  And stop devil's-advocating for it.

Offline pazzo83

  • Posts: 5348
...no DH...at any time...ever.

Let those who want offensive a l'outrance watch the NBA or college hockey...leave National League baseball to those who can appreciate defence.

A ) Spell defense right
B ) 'Murca.

 :couch:

Offline Vega

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I was going to write a point by point rebuttal of your post, until I got to the end and saw this.

NOBODY agrees with this point.  Not AL fans, not NL fans, not fans of this team and posters on this board.

Some people hate the DH.  Some people prefer it.  Nobody thinks that no matter what, we have to make the rules the same in both leagues, even if it means adopting the position we personally don't like.  You and I both dislike the DH.  So dislike it.  And stop devil's-advocating for it.
I think that, but I don't enough of a damn to write paragraphs about it. And I don't care either way about whether the DH should exist or not.

Offline whytev

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I think that, but I don't enough of a damn to write paragraphs about it. And I don't care either way about whether the DH should exist or not.

Fair enough.  You have a slight preference for standardization, and you only barely care.  You're pretty much neutral.

What's bonkers is insisting on the standardization of the rules, and not wanting the rules to go the way you prefer.

Offline OldChelsea

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baseball does fine with what it is- a sport where local teams are popular with a smaller number of people following the sport as a whole (as opposed the the NBA or NFL where tons of fans watch no matter what team is on)

A large percentage of NBA fandom is bandwagoners. On last night's Hawks-Wizards radio broadcast it was noted that a large percentage of the Atlanta supporters were not just standing up but chatting on mobiles and taking selfies. The Hawks are a team that until the past couple of seasons had enjoyed little recent success on the hardwood and had not drawn all that well, and a lot of those mobile/selfie types are going to crawl back under whatever rock they emerged from once the team starts losing again.

Or take the Wizards-Cavaliers matches during the Arenas/Butler/Jamison years - lots of people in the Verizon stands in Cavs colours but who probably would have been hard put to name another player at that team besides LeBron James - so successfully has the NBA nationalised its marketing and centred it round various star players rather than teams. When James left the Cavs, these 'Cavs fans' were no longer seen at the Phone Booth.

Baseball may not have as large a following nowadays as the NFL or NBA, but I would propose that the hard-core fandom of its various clubs is larger than that of those two leagues.

Online Minty Fresh

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A large percentage of NBA fandom is bandwagoners. On last night's Hawks-Wizards radio broadcast it was noted that a large percentage of the Atlanta supporters were not just standing up but chatting on mobiles and taking selfies. The Hawks are a team that until the past couple of seasons had enjoyed little recent success on the hardwood and had not drawn all that well, and a lot of those mobile/selfie types are going to crawl back under whatever rock they emerged from once the team starts losing again.

And that isn't indicative of modern day baseball fans?

Quote
Baseball may not have as large a following nowadays as the NFL or NBA, but I would propose that the hard-core fandom of its various clubs is larger than that of those two leagues.

NBA, perhaps you could make that argument but to think that's the case for the NFL seems extremely far-fetched.

Online HalfSmokes

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And that isn't indicative of modern day baseball fans?

NBA, perhaps you could make that argument but to think that's the case for the NFL seems extremely far-fetched.

the NFL is 16 games in the regular season plus playoffs- I wonder how much of their popularity has to do with the relative scarcity of the product (just imagine the tension if baseball or basketball teams played one game a week in a season that short- every game would matter, more tension, and probably a ruined product, but I think the rating would skyrocket for those games)

Online Minty Fresh

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the NFL is 16 games in the regular season plus playoffs- I wonder how much of their popularity has to do with the relative scarcity of the product (just imagine the tension if baseball or basketball teams played one game a week in a season that short- every game would matter, more tension, and probably a ruined product, but I think the rating would skyrocket for those games)

I'll bet it has everything to do with it.  I think the NFL toyed with an 18-game schedule with two bye weeks and determined the product is more consumable as is.  Less is more.

The NBA, NHL and MLB schedules are just too long.

Offline whytev

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I'll bet it has everything to do with it.  I think the NFL toyed with an 18-game schedule with two bye weeks and determined the product is more consumable as is.  Less is more.

The NBA, NHL and MLB schedules are just too long.

I disagree. The NHL and NBA are too long for a playoff format with 16 teams getting in. Baseball is perfect for its playoff format. The long season grind is part of the game.

Offline _sturt_

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First, before suggesting that no one has envisioned or embraced the idea of compromise, one might want to reconsider that. Here's just one of several examples I can offer... you can't be faulted for not knowing this, but I could, because this obviously has been a pet issue for me for some time...

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/27435474/

whytev, I started to PM you on this because you've seemed to be a pretty reasonable person thus far in my exchanges with you, and because of that then, I didn't really want to take my retort to your retort public. But then, I decided to take a chance that you're not among the so-thin-skinned that that's a problem, but in fact, we might be able to have a productive discussion. You have correctly deciphered that this is one of the fundamental pillars to the discussion, and so that to me justifies answering your protest publicly.

So, begging your indulgence, let me just be straightforward what's missing in making that assertion.

We crown a champion in any of the major US sports based on the results of, in the end, a best-of-7 tournament, right?

There is integrity in doing that... it makes sense... because both opponents' teams have been shaped according to what is more likely to result in more success given the rules that govern the game they play.

It works for sports, and it works in any other venue--essentially, in the modern age, it is scientific method that guides how we determine what is superior. We set conditions under which two objects are developed, we set a standard by which those objects are to be judged, we test those objects to see which performs better according to that standard, and declare one to be superior.

Thus far, I've said nothing controversial. We all agree on that much.

For example, let's say you sponsor a contest among some students to see who can develop the best solar-powered vehicle, and you define "best," as the vehicle that will travel 100 miles in the shortest amount of time.

You hand out the rules that govern how they are to develop that vehicle.

One set of rules to 15 of the entrants which includes that they may consult only with engineers from General Motors and may only use GM tools, equipment, and facilities in producing the vehicle... and that they will all compete with each other to render the best from their group.

The other 15 get the same rules except that they may consult only with engineers from Ford and use Ford tools, equipment and facilities... and they, too, will compete with each other to render the best from their group.

Fast forward to the end. You award a $1,000,000 prize to the student team deemed the best according to the fastest-100-mile standard. Let's say it was the team that operated in a GM environment.

You call them the "best" team, but did your contest actually determine the "best" team?

No. Not actually.

What you really determined was not the best team, but the best environment... ie, the conditions, ie, set of rules... that was more likely to render a more successful product given the standard mandated to determine superiority.

That is, had both had equal access to either GM or Ford, then you could say which was the best team because both had equivalent capacity to design and manufacture a product superior to the other.

Because that wasn't so, the contest is rightfully open to criticism and is, therefore, flawed. The rules were not the same for all competing with each other, one having a different freedom/parameter to develop their product from the other.

Want to know why the NFL, NBA, or any other major sport doesn't have one rule for half its teams, and another for the other half?

No, it's not just a matter of their happenstance preference.

There is reason. And that is it. To do otherwise, rationally, skews the championship.


Online Minty Fresh

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  • Oh you call what you got a team?
We crown a champion in any of the major US sports based on the results of, in the end, a best-of-7 tournament, right?

There is integrity in doing that... it makes sense... because both opponents' teams have been shaped according to what is more likely to result in more success given the rules that govern the game they play.

No.  In THE major sport in the U.S. (American football), we use a one-and-done method to determine a champion.

Further, THE major sport in the world (football/soccer) uses a one-and-done method to determine champions.  So you're already wrong.

Quote
For example, let's say you sponsor a contest among some students to see who can develop the best solar-powered vehicle, and you define "best," as the vehicle that will travel 100 miles in the shortest amount of time.

You hand out the rules that govern how they are to develop that vehicle.

One set of rules to 15 of the entrants which includes that they may consult only with engineers from General Motors and may only use GM tools, equipment, and facilities in producing the vehicle... and that they will all compete with each other to render the best from their group.

The other 15 get the same rules except that they may consult only with engineers from Ford and use Ford tools, equipment and facilities... and they, too, will compete with each other to render the best from their group.

Fast forward to the end. You award a $1,000,000 prize to the student team deemed the best according to the fastest-100-mile standard. Let's say it was the team that operated in a GM environment.

You call them the "best" team, but did your contest actually determine the "best" team?

No. Not actually.

What you really determined was not the best team, but the best environment... ie, the conditions, ie, set of rules... that was more likely to render a more successful product given the standard mandated to determine superiority.

That is, had both had equal access to either GM or Ford, then you could say which was the best team because both had equivalent capacity to design and manufacture a product superior to the other.

Because that wasn't so, the contest is rightfully open to criticism and is, therefore, flawed. The rules were not the same for all competing with each other, one having a different freedom/parameter to develop their product from the other.

You've esentially just described NASCAR (except they don't use solar powered vehicles) and that's a wildly successful sporting model.

Quote
Want to know why the NFL, NBA, or any other major sport doesn't have one rule for half its teams, and another for the other half?

No, it's not just a matter of their happenstance preference.

There is reason. And that is it. To do otherwise, rationally, skews the championship.

That, and they're all one league.  The American League and the National League ARE DIFFERENT LEAGUES.

Online HalfSmokes

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You've esentially just described NASCAR (except they don't use solar powered vehicles) and that's a wildly successful sporting model.


it also describes most student challenges (including his example - solar cars) - kids from TJ will have more resources and better advisors than kids from a random high school in south western Virginia- they still get the prizes and are considered the winners. Students with access to MIT labs and faculty will have an advantage over kids at St. John's College- it doesn't mean that they don't win

Offline mimontero88

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I have never liked the DH rule but I also equally dislike that the AL wins interleague play against the NL almost every year because the NL's DH is a bench player who is supposed to counter the likes of David Ortiz and Victor Martinez.  Additionally, while having the pitcher bat increases the importance of the manager's decision-making since there is a lot of strategy that goes into pinch-hitting late in games, it can also lead to a lot of luck as where you are in your lineup can dictate what kind of inning you can have.  So many big rallies have died before they could be started because the pitcher just can't do anything with the bat.  Additionally, when you look at contracts like Prince Fielder's you have to ask if any NL team could have ever paid that for a player whose body type essentially guarantees that he will be useless in the field within a couple of years.  None of these disadvantages by themselves doom the NL but taken together, they create enough of a problem that I think I have begun to change my mind on the DH rule coming to the NL.  I think it might be better for the game long-term if we just accept the DH.

Online HalfSmokes

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Additionally, when you look at contracts like Prince Fielder's you have to ask if any NL team could have ever paid that for a player whose body type essentially guarantees that he will be useless in the field within a couple of years.  None of these disadvantages by themselves doom the NL but taken together, they create enough of a problem that I think I have begun to change my mind on the DH rule coming to the NL.  I think it might be better for the game long-term if we just accept the DH.

I thought that way when Prince and Pujols went to the AL, but now I think the ability to sign those deals may be more of a disadvantage than an advantage- I'm a firm believer in the winner's curse with almost every mega free agent contract

Offline _sturt_

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No.  In THE major sport in the U.S. (American football), we use a one-and-done method to determine a champion.

Further, THE major sport in the world (football/soccer) uses a one-and-done method to determine champions.  So you're already wrong.

You're right, but you know you're also quibbling with details... the point remains... the rules for all are the same.

You've esentially just described NASCAR (except they don't use solar powered vehicles) and that's a wildly successful sporting model.

You're so quick to try to score points and find a different conclusion that you employ almost no critical thinking first. Can you not argue with yourself a little bit before posting?

Here's what's missing from your analysis, my friend.

1. Do NASCAR rules prescribe that drivers are limited to working with only certain racing teams, or racing teams limited to choosing certain drivers?

No, they don't. Everyone has equivalent access in that way to form their team, develop their car, and race it.

Not so in MLB.

2. Do all cars have to comply with all rules otherwise, or do half the racing teams/drivers comply with one set, and the other another set?

Yes... the former.

MLB?... the latter.


That, and they're all one league.  The American League and the National League ARE DIFFERENT LEAGUES.

Right. So, a championship in the AL is valid. A championship in the NL is valid.

One championship between two leagues with two different rules is not.

Don't mistake my decision to respond to indicate that I think you're approaching this in any neutral, open-minded way. I don't pretend that I'm making any headway with you. But I do think it's valuable to answer protests for the sake of others who are (ie, neutral and open-minded).

Offline mimontero88

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I thought that way when Prince and Pujols went to the AL, but now I think the ability to sign those deals may be more of a disadvantage than an advantage- I'm a firm believer in the winner's curse with almost every mega free agent contract
I think teams have gotten smarter and are beginning to realize the kind of player you have to give the megadeal to so I think they will begin working out more.  The Stanton contract was a lot smarter than the contracts for Pujols, Cabrera, and Fielder because Stanton is still young enough to be playing meaningful baseball by the end of it and his career arc looks exceptional.  The Marlins are paying for much more future performance than past performance in all likelihood and I think those are the kind of deals we will see more.  If Harper continues at his current pace, would any of us be that concerned about giving him the same contract, a contract that would take him to his age 36 season?  I doubt it.  I think as teams learn the lessons of the past big contracts, these contracts will become better and better for the teams that give them out.

Online Minty Fresh

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  • Oh you call what you got a team?
You're so quick to try to score points and find a different conclusion that you employ almost no critical thinking first. Can you not argue with yourself a little bit before posting?

Here's what's missing from your analysis, my friend.

1. Do NASCAR rules prescribe that drivers are limited to working with only certain racing teams, or racing teams limited to choosing certain drivers?

No, they don't. Everyone has equivalent access in that way to form their team, develop their car, and race it.

Not so in MLB.

2. Do all cars have to comply with all rules otherwise, or do half the racing teams/drivers comply with one set, and the other another set?

Yes.

Not so in MLB.

Ummmm . . .

You're right, but you know you're also quibbling with details... the point remains...

Don't mistake my decision to respond to indicate that I think you're approaching this in any neutral, open-minded way. I don't pretend that I'm making any headway with you. But I do think it's valuable to answer protests for the sake of others who are (ie, neutral and open-minded).

:lmao:

Ironic irony is ironic...


Right. So, a championship in the AL is valid. A championship in the NL is valid.

One championship between two leagues with two different rules is not.

Thank GOD you're here to mandate what is valid and what is not.  The millions of people who consider the World Series a valid championship will rest easier now knowing that when their favorite team doesn't win the World Series that it wasn't relevant anyway.

:lmao:

I would write what I really think but . . .

JCA would take my post down.

Online HalfSmokes

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1. Do NASCAR rules prescribe that drivers are limited to working with only certain racing teams, or racing teams limited to choosing certain drivers?

No, they don't. Everyone has equivalent access in that way to form their team, develop their car, and race it.

your example talked about access to GM engineers vs Ford- Hendrick Motorsports works with GM (actually chevy)- no hendrick driver could work with ford (because they drive a chevy and are sponsored by GM) the same way Richard Petty Motorsports could work with GM because they are sponsored by ford and drive fords, so your example perfectly fits nascar

Quote
Don't mistake my decision to respond to indicate that I think you're approaching this in any neutral, open-minded way. I don't pretend that I'm making any headway with you. But I do think it's valuable to answer protests for the sake of others who are (ie, neutral and open-minded).



Offline _sturt_

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Note to other readers... that sound you just heard as you viewed Minty and Smokes' replies was NOT a the sound of a fighter jet... but yeah, it made the same noise for the same reason... and I'm just not going to keep repeating myself.

I have no reason to think they couldn't get it... I have every reason to think they don't want to get it.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Hey, debate the merits, not the people.  I'm not running the youtube at work.  Frankly, I don't want to even read the posts here (it's not a topic I'm interested in, I don't have the time at work to waste trying to decipher what this is about . . .).  Just ease up on each other personally.  And WTF does the noise of a fighter jet have to do with a baseball discussion?

Online HalfSmokes

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Note to other readers... that sound you just heard as you viewed Minty and Smokes' replies was NOT a the sound of a fighter jet... but yeah, it made the same noise for the same reason... and I'm just not going to keep repeating myself.

I have no reason to think they couldn't get it... I have every reason to think they don't want to get it.


:shrug: It's not our fault you made an analogy that perfectly fits another sport with a large and devoted fanbase

Offline _sturt_

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So, JCA, I think what you're saying is that you're not particularly threatened by the line of discussion, so you haven't bothered to engage it?

Hmmmm... interesting...

 ;)

Online HalfSmokes

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Oh.... did you hear that?... another sonic boom.... wow, cool.

When you're ready to engage the topic rather than avoiding it by attempting some personal attack, I'll be  here.

Not holding my breath, of course. For obvious reasons.

But I'll be here.

Online Minty Fresh

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:shrug: It's not our fault you made an analogy that perfectly fits another AT LEAST THREE sportS with a large and devoted fanbaseS

FTFY

But those three sports - all more popular than baseball - don't matter because they can't possibly compare in terms of "integrity."