Military History

[mitlen]

This is The Commander in Chief's topic.  It was always The Commander in Chief's topic.

FIFY

[mitlen]

Ninja editing by the Chief.   

[JCA-CrystalCity]

73rd for Midway

You might want to put Midway up against any other battle for the most amazing US victory. Took some lousy strategy from Yamamoto, poor execution by Nagumo, and still we needed incredible luck for the Yorktown pilots to find the Japanese carriers. Why Yamamoto divided his forces so many ways and wasted a couple of light carriers on the Aleutians, Nagumo's forgetting that the main point of the whole exercise was to get the American carriers, and the random spotting of a destroyer trying to catch back up to the Japanese carrier formation leading the US air group back to the carriers just when they had their air cover on the deck, their gas lines full to refuel planes, and their hangars full of unstored bombs from the second change in armament is spectacular.  Add in that this more or less stopped the Japanese cold and killed their best pilots, it was probably the single battle that the US never should have won but did and changed the outcome of the whole war.

[mitlen]

You might want to put Midway up against any other battle for the most amazing US victory. Took some lousy strategy from Yamamoto, poor execution by Nagumo, and still we needed incredible luck for the Yorktown pilots to find the Japanese carriers. Why Yamamoto divided his forces so many ways and wasted a couple of light carriers on the Aleutians, Nagumo's forgetting that the main point of the whole exercise was to get the American carriers, and the random spotting of a destroyer trying to catch back up to the Japanese carrier formation leading the US air group back to the carriers just when they had their air cover on the deck, their gas lines full to refuel planes, and their hangars full of unstored bombs from the second change in armament is spectacular.  Add in that this more or less stopped the Japanese cold and killed their best pilots, it was probably the single battle that the US never should have won but did and changed the outcome of the whole war.

True dat.    Read a book () a long time ago  ...   "Miracle at Midway" by G. Prange.    Good read.

BTW   There was a Corsair at the airshow today.    The pilot loved doin' loops and huggin' the deck.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Corsairs are beautiful.  Apparently, the length of the cowling made them difficult to land, so the Marines used the Corsair and the Navy used the Hellcat.  eventually, with the Kamikazes and the need for more fighter cover, they started putting Marine Corsair squadrons to supplement the Hellcats on the carriers.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

They had a group of re-enacters as the Black Sheep.

I think the first plane the Black Sheep flew was the P-47 Thunderbolt.  I think they were the only Thunderbolt unit in the pacific.  They did switch over at some point.

[edit - I cannot find a reference for this; I'm probably wrong.]

[mitlen]

I think the first plane the Black Sheep flew was the P-47 Thunderbolt.  I think they were the only Thunderbolt unit in the pacific.  They did switch over at some point.

[edit - I cannot find a reference for this; I'm probably wrong.]

Well you do cheer for the Pats.     

[JCA-CrystalCity]

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_P-47_pacific.html

Other units flew the p-47 in the pacific.

[tomterp]

True dat.    Read a book () a long time ago  ...   "Miracle at Midway" by G. Prange.    Good read.

BTW   There was a Corsair at the airshow today.    The pilot loved doin' loops and huggin' the deck.

Gordon Prange also wrote At Dawn We Slept, the definitive history of the Pearl Harbor attack and on which the movie Tora! Tora! Tora! was based.

It would be remiss of me not to mention also that he was a U of Maryland history professor from 1937 to 1980, except for a 9 year break when he served on MacArthur's staff, which gave him access to a number of Japanese military officers, inside information that distinguished his books from others on the topic.

[mitlen]

Gordon Prange also wrote At Dawn We Slept, the definitive history of the Pearl Harbor attack and on which the movie Tora! Tora! Tora! was based.

It would be remiss of me not to mention also that he was a U of Maryland history professor from 1937 to 1980, except for a 9 year break when he served on MacArthur's staff, which gave him access to a number of Japanese military officers, inside information that distinguished his books from others on the topic.

I read "At Dawn We Slept" as well.    These comments prompted me to go upstairs to the "library" and start looking through all the books I have on shelves.    May have to re-read some of the histories.

[dracnal]

True dat.    Read a book () a long time ago  ...   "Miracle at Midway" by G. Prange.    Good read.

BTW   There was a Corsair at the airshow today.    The pilot loved doin' loops and huggin' the deck.

Midway was the first naval battle where the two main forces never saw each other. Was fought entirely by the planes.  Pretty well drove the nail into the coffin of the battleship right then and there (even if it took some admirals a while to realize it).

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Midway was the first naval battle where the two main forces never saw each other. Was fought entirely by the planes.  Pretty well drove the nail into the coffin of the battleship right then and there (even if it took some admirals a while to realize it).

sad to say, a Japanese I-class sub also had a role.

[imref]

sad to say, a Japanese I-class sub also had a role.

I'm about halfway through The Admirals, there's a good amount of discussion about how Navy leaders missed the decline of the Battleship, the impact of air power, and the impact of submarines.  The author notes that there was a gentleman's agreement among navy commanders not to use submarines for offensive purposes for fear that it would destroy surface Navies, of course the Germans in WWI disregarded that agreement.

History repeats itself - witness the utter destruction of wooden navy ships at Hampton Roads by the CSS Virginia, a wake-up call to those who thought the wooden navy was indestructible despite well publicized news of the coming of iron.

Now we're shifting rapidly to a future where wars will be fought by drones.

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

It was so unsporting for the Germans to use machine guns against other Europeans. The Maxim and Metrailleuse were intended to mow down colonial wogs, not be used against one another! Bad show.

of course the Germans in WWI disregarded that agreement.

[HalfSmokes]

I'm about halfway through The Admirals, there's a good amount of discussion about how Navy leaders missed the decline of the Battleship, the impact of air power, and the impact of submarines.  The author notes that there was a gentleman's agreement among navy commanders not to use submarines for offensive purposes for fear that it would destroy surface Navies, of course the Germans in WWI disregarded that agreement.

History repeats itself - witness the utter destruction of wooden navy ships at Hampton Roads by the CSS Virginia, a wake-up call to those who thought the wooden navy was indestructible despite well publicized news of the coming of iron.

Now we're shifting rapidly to a future where wars will be fought by drones.

Don't worry, the littoral ship leaves me to believe admirals can still prefer toys to common sense

[imref]

It was so unsporting for the Germans to use machine guns against other Europeans. The Maxim and Metrailleuse were intended to mow down colonial wogs, not be used against one another! Bad show.

i remember reading about battles where not a shot was fired, it was all a maneuvering game.    I assume most of you have been to the Manassas battle field, the introduction movie talks about how people brought picnic baskets to watch the battle, and by the end of the day their innocence was a thing of the past.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I'm about halfway through The Admirals, there's a good amount of discussion about how Navy leaders missed the decline of the Battleship, the impact of air power, and the impact of submarines.  The author notes that there was a gentleman's agreement among navy commanders not to use submarines for offensive purposes for fear that it would destroy surface Navies, of course the Germans in WWI disregarded that agreement.

History repeats itself - witness the utter destruction of wooden navy ships at Hampton Roads by the CSS Virginia, a wake-up call to those who thought the wooden navy was indestructible despite well publicized news of the coming of iron.

Now we're shifting rapidly to a future where wars will be fought by drones.

Biggest use of the BBs commissioned in WWII (primarily the North Carolina and Iowa classes) was as fast carrier escorts due to their armament and in support of amphibious landings.  Savo Island I think was the only engagement where a battleship (the Washington) sunk a battleship by gunfire in the whole Pacific (we'll ignore the Bismarck sinking the Hood in the Atlantic).  The portion of Leyte Gulf in the southern straight (Surigao?) also involved battleship to battleship fire, but that had other units involved and some torpedo hits.  That one involved several of the slow BBs that were sunk and raised at Pearl Harbor.  The Tennessee, I think, and maybe a few others.  As for the fast BBs that were part of the 3d/5th Fleet, those were detached by Halsey to finish off the carriers in the northern, decoy force rather than close off access to the beachhead around Samar.

[imref]

Biggest use of the BBs commissioned in WWII (primarily the North Carolina and Iowa classes) was as fast carrier escorts due to their armament and in support of amphibious landings.  Savo Island I think was the only engagement where a battleship (the Washington) sunk a battleship by gunfire in the whole Pacific (we'll ignore the Bismarck sinking the Hood in the Atlantic).  The portion of Leyte Gulf in the southern straight (Surigao?) also involved battleship to battleship fire, but that had other units involved and some torpedo hits.  That one involved several of the slow BBs that were sunk and raised at Pearl Harbor.  The Tennessee, I think, and maybe a few others.  As for the fast BBs that were part of the 3d/5th Fleet, those were detached by Halsey to finish off the carriers in the northern, decoy force rather than close off access to the beachhead around Samar.

there's a lot of discussion in the Admirals as well about the lack of realization of the impact of torpedoes, the belief until Pearl Harbor is that they required close contact to launch, and thus weren't much of a threat.  Plane-carried torpedoes caught the US leaders by surprise.

[dracnal]

I find it kind of wild that BBs were still happily used in the Vietnam Era.  My mom took a flight into Saigon to meet my Dad when he was on leave.  Her plane was being shot at (with no real accuracy) from ground troops and the Missouri was off the coast pounding the area with the big guns.

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

The USS Iowa was used to shell Hezbollah during the US involvement in Beirut in 1983

Correction - that was Iowa-class USS New Jersey. USS Missouri and Wisconsin were later used in the first Gulf War, something I totally managed to forget. Thanks interwebz!

I find it kind of wild that BBs were still happily used in the Vietnam Era.  My mom took a flight into Saigon to meet my Dad when he was on leave.  Her plane was being shot at (with no real accuracy) from ground troops and the Missouri was off the coast pounding the area with the big guns.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I find it kind of wild that BBs were still happily used in the Vietnam Era.  My mom took a flight into Saigon to meet my Dad when he was on leave.  Her plane was being shot at (with no real accuracy) from ground troops and the Missouri was off the coast pounding the area with the big guns.

Actually, they were used off and on up through Gulf War I.  The New Jersey I think was the one that was active in Vietnam and in Lebanon, and the Iowa was active in GW I.  In Lebanon, I think Hizbullah said that the New Jersey was a great recruiting tool because of the collateral damage its shells would have.  In GW I, I think there was a sabotage act in one of the Iowa turrets by a seaman that resulted in several casualties.  I forget the last time the Wisconsin and the Missouri were active.   Hard for me to fathom having the Missouri active given its historical significance, but I do think it was active in the 1980s. 

The argument used to be that these were fantastic platforms for launching cruise missiles, and that rather than building new cruisers from scratch, just repurpose these old hulls. 

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

I went on the Missouri when it was docked in Bremerton before it got recommissioned. Pretty sure it was the Missouri (I was a kid). Hard to believe it was in hostilities again over ten years later.

Actually, they were used off and on up through Gulf War I.  The New Jersey I think was the one that was active in Vietnam and in Lebanon, and the Iowa was active in GW I.  In Lebanon, I think Hizbullah said that the New Jersey was a great recruiting tool because of the collateral damage its shells would have.  In GW I, I think there was a sabotage act in one of the Iowa turrets by a seaman that resulted in several casualties.  I forget the last time the Wisconsin and the Missouri were active.   Hard for me to fathom having the Missouri active given its historical significance, but I do think it was active in the 1980s. 

The argument used to be that these were fantastic platforms for launching cruise missiles, and that rather than building new cruisers from scratch, just repurpose these old hulls. 

[JCA-CrystalCity]

The use of BBs is part of the 600 ship Navy Leaman mythologized and which has reemerged as a critique of the size of our current Navy.  Count the number of hulls and if it is less than Reagan, or less than Wilson, then it shows weakness.  Of course, Wilson counted shore defense Monitors in that count, and Leaman counted BBs and conventionally powered carriers, etc... 

[dracnal]

Actually, they were used off and on up through Gulf War I. The New Jersey I think was the one that was active in Vietnam and in Lebanon, and the Iowa was active in GW I.  In Lebanon, I think Hizbullah said that the New Jersey was a great recruiting tool because of the collateral damage its shells would have.  In GW I, I think there was a sabotage act in one of the Iowa turrets by a seaman that resulted in several casualties.  I forget the last time the Wisconsin and the Missouri were active.   Hard for me to fathom having the Missouri active given its historical significance, but I do think it was active in the 1980s. 

The argument used to be that these were fantastic platforms for launching cruise missiles, and that rather than building new cruisers from scratch, just repurpose these old hulls.

Actually came back to update that to the correct ship.  And yeah, I remember seeing footage of them firing off missile after missile in GW1.  Cruise Missile platform doesn't seem quite so outdated and archaic though as firing ginormous shells from insane guns.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

from wiki fro Iowa Class Battleship:

in 1968, New Jersey shelled Viet Cong and Vietnam People's Army forces in the Vietnam War. All four were reactivated and armed with missiles during the 1980s as part of the 600-ship Navy initiative; during 1991's Operation Desert Storm, Missouri and Wisconsin fired missiles and 16-inch (406 mm) guns at Iraqi targets.