Author Topic: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013  (Read 1869 times)

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Online blue911

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #50: January 09, 2013, 06:51:34 PM »
The BBWAA voted to give Bonds 7 MVP awards and Clemens 7 Cy Youngs. Seems like they don't have much of a case for keeping them out.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #51: January 09, 2013, 06:53:58 PM »
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ken-burns-clemens-bonds-baseball-409759

Quote
The Hollywood Reporter: Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and Mike Piazza are all on the Baseball Hall of Fame ballot. Would you vote for them?
Ken Burns: No.

THR: Ever?

Ken Burns: I want them to suffer for a while.


Ugh. Sports reporters/writers/voters are the very, very worst. Giving them any kind of power over history is such a terrible, terrible thing.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #52: January 09, 2013, 07:30:03 PM »
Ken Burns is also a historian

Offline UMDNats

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #53: January 09, 2013, 07:48:04 PM »
Ken Burns is also a historian

I know. His mentality/response is that of the sports writers/voters who didn't vote in guys like Piazza and Biggio this year, but will next year.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #54: January 09, 2013, 07:55:31 PM »
I doubt it,  I think the guys who romanticize baseball like burns will never forgive that generation of players

Offline UMDNats

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #55: January 09, 2013, 07:58:19 PM »
I doubt it,  I think the guys who romanticize baseball like burns will never forgive that generation of players

which is also absurd, as if the players ruined the game or something and hurt everyone. yea, using steroids is cheating, but let's not act like steroid usage directly hurt burns or anyone else. if anything, it helped them; they benefited from it. how many baseball fans are fans because of the steroids era, and thus enjoy stuff like Burns' work?

these players made mistakes, but that mindset that the players ruined the game they love and therefore can't be in the HOF is stupid.

(not talking about burns directly here, just generalizing)

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #56: January 09, 2013, 08:03:39 PM »
Which is fine, but if you come at baseball from the prospective of boys of summer/hope springs eternal, you're not likely to forgive or forget. Keep in mind, baseball is a sport where a commissioner wrote this http://mason.gmu.edu/~rmatz/giamatti.html. If this were any other sport, I think people would forget, but baseball has fans to whom it represents something more and all of the sudden those numbers that meant so much are meaningless (not that they weren't already) and this story book fiction is ruined.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #57: January 09, 2013, 08:18:11 PM »
Clemens and especially Bonds made a mockery of baseball.  They don't belong in the Hall of Fame.

Ty Cobb cheated, Willie Mays cheated, Hank Aaron cheated. Let's kick them and many of their peers out and put heavy suspicion on anyone remaining who was good from their respective eras.

I don't condone cheating and in fact wish MLB had tougher penalties than already in place but this line of thinking is silly.

The BBWAA voted to give Bonds 7 MVP awards and Clemens 7 Cy Youngs. Seems like they don't have much of a case for keeping them out.

This is what really irks me. They are so hypocritical about this whole thing.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #58: January 09, 2013, 08:42:21 PM »
There are degrees of cheating.  Steroids allowed players to do things unseen in 150 years of baseball.  I don't think it's silly to not discount that.  For example - Bonds was hitting so well in 2004 that he was intentionally walked 120 times that year.  The next highest non-Bonds number of intentional walks in a season is 45.  That is what I mean when I say he was making a mockery of the sport.  Doing that is not the same as extra pine tar on a bat or spitting on a ball before throwing a pitch. 

Regarding the 7 MVPs - there is no rule that says 7 MVPs or 700 home runs gets you in.  And more importantly, additional information has come to light since those 7 MPVs were voted on and that needs to be taken into account.

Online blue911

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #59: January 09, 2013, 08:48:37 PM »
Tyler you're missing the point. I'm not saying that anything guarantees enshrinement. But you can't glorify a deed on one hand then condemn on the other. There was plenty of signals of PED abuse and the writers mainly ignored or ridiculed the evidence.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #60: January 09, 2013, 08:53:03 PM »
There are degrees of cheating.  Steroids allowed players to do things unseen in 150 years of baseball.  I don't think it's silly to not discount that.  For example - Bonds was hitting so well in 2004 that he was intentionally walked 120 times that year.  The next highest non-Bonds number of intentional walks in a season is 45.  That is what I mean when I say he was making a mockery of the sport.  Doing that is not the same as extra pine tar on a bat or spitting on a ball before throwing a pitch. 

In my mind at least, cheating is cheating. Any form of it makes a mockery of the game. To say certain levels of cheating are acceptable and others aren't is ridiculous. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of players were using PEDs during this time period and still no one came close to what Bonds did.

Quote
Regarding the 7 MVPs - there is no rule that says 7 MVPs or 700 home runs gets you in.  And more importantly, additional information has come to light since those 7 MPVs were voted on and that needs to be taken into account.

I don't buy this. Most of these writers were up close and personal with these guys. Even if they didn't see it happening personally they would have heard rumors and other strange happenings. They endorsed the behavior because it helped their careers.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #61: January 09, 2013, 08:54:02 PM »
We all got caught up in it - the summer of Sosa and Mcgwire, the ridiculous dominance of Bonds. 

But - better to address the mistakes made by not further glorifying what Bonds did.  Two wrongs...etc.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #62: January 09, 2013, 08:56:09 PM »
In my mind at least, cheating is cheating. Any form of it makes a mockery of the game. To say certain levels of cheating are acceptable and others aren't is ridiculous. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of players were using PEDs during this time period and still no one came close to what Bonds did.

I don't buy this. Most of these writers were up close and personal with these guys. Even if they didn't see it happening personally they would have heard rumors and other strange happenings. They endorsed the behavior because it helped their careers.

Cheating is cheating, you are right.  But life is made up of shades of gray.  Otherwise, jaywalkers and murderers would be lumped together.

Offline welch

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #63: January 09, 2013, 08:57:09 PM »
Clemens is probably the greatest pitcher of his generation. He's off the charts for every HOF indicator on baseball reference (one has him as the third most hall worthy pitcher ever, http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml). I still think he and bonds never get in though 


Dwight Gooden matched Clemens...until Gooden began doing cocaine and Clemens began doing steroids. Gooden shortened his career and Clemens lengthened his. I disregard about half of Clemens record. Same with Bonds, McGwire, Sosa.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #64: January 09, 2013, 08:59:29 PM »
Gooden also got injured.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #65: January 09, 2013, 09:03:03 PM »
Even with an asterisk next to their names, I still don't think they belong. 

It's a museum. History is usually recorded in a museum.

Also, it's worth noting in an era of cheaters, these guys still were better than everyone else. Blame chemistry or realize they were still the most talented.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #66: January 09, 2013, 09:08:21 PM »
Cheating is cheating, you are right.  But life is made up of shades of gray.  Otherwise, jaywalkers and murderers would be lumped together.

Sure, but we're not talking about sentencing criminals. We're talking about enshrining players into the hall of fame. A lot of people bring up the message you're sending by allowing Bonds, Clemens, etc. into the hall. What message are you sending when you say some banned substances and practices are ok but others aren't? (ironically "greenies", the banned substance that is ok to take, are much worse for you medically than steroids)

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #67: January 09, 2013, 09:16:55 PM »
Isn't this great - the bozos that gave these guys MVPs and Cy Youngs all of a sudden get a conscious. Reminds me of those taint lickers that had Lance's testicle in their mouths when he was winning the TdF and are now applauding his fall from grace. freak 'em.

Online imref

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #68: January 09, 2013, 09:24:32 PM »
next year should have several first ballot inductees: glavine, maddox, frank thomas, and maybe even Jeff Kent.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #69: January 09, 2013, 09:44:47 PM »
Sure, but we're not talking about sentencing criminals. We're talking about enshrining players into the hall of fame. A lot of people bring up the message you're sending by allowing Bonds, Clemens, etc. into the hall. What message are you sending when you say some banned substances and practices are ok but others aren't? (ironically "greenies", the banned substance that is ok to take, are much worse for you medically than steroids)

Use whatever metaphor you want - things are still never black and white.  And I realize you can't be perfect and no line drawn will please everyone.  But you can still try.  Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens played in the same era as Ken Griffey Jr. and Greg Maddux.  You can't, in my opinion, include both and you can't exclude both.  So you try to draw a line somewhere in between. 

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #70: January 09, 2013, 09:47:38 PM »
It's a museum. History is usually recorded in a museum.

Also, it's worth noting in an era of cheaters, these guys still were better than everyone else. Blame chemistry or realize they were still the most talented.

Their records still stand.  No one is taking away Bonds' home runs.  Doesn't mean we should further glorify what they accomplished (with help).

Online Kevrock

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #71: January 09, 2013, 09:56:01 PM »
which is also absurd, as if the players ruined the game or something and hurt everyone. yea, using steroids is cheating, but let's not act like steroid usage directly hurt burns or anyone else. if anything, it helped them; they benefited from it. how many baseball fans are fans because of the steroids era, and thus enjoy stuff like Burns' work?


I stopped following MLB baseball for nearly a decade in disgust. These cheaters can rot.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #72: January 09, 2013, 10:00:02 PM »
It's a museum. History is usually recorded in a museum.

Also, it's worth noting in an era of cheaters, these guys still were better than everyone else. Blame chemistry or realize they were still the most talented.

It's a hall within a museum honoring the greats,  you can have bonds in the museum and not give him a plaque in the hall

Offline mitlen

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #73: January 09, 2013, 10:10:25 PM »
Ty Cobb cheated, Willie Mays cheated, Hank Aaron cheated.

I ain't sayin' yea or nay but what are you basing this on?

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #74: January 09, 2013, 10:21:40 PM »
It's a hall within a museum honoring the greats,  you can have bonds in the museum and not give him a plaque in the hall

I'm fairly certain Pete Rose has some things in the hall.