Author Topic: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013  (Read 1559 times)

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Offline CALSGR8

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #75: January 10, 2013, 02:45:19 AM »
Yes he does.  Artifacts are there for statistical achievement.   A dedicated plaque you must meet higher qualifications.

Online Vega

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #76: January 10, 2013, 03:14:01 AM »
I am way beyond giving a damn about PEDs. Just let them in and get the whole stupid mess over with once and for all.

Offline Coladar

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #77: January 10, 2013, 07:21:54 AM »
I am way beyond giving a damn about PEDs. Just let them in and get the whole stupid mess over with once and for all.

I mentioned it earlier... Having never been to the HoF and too lazy this morning to look it up, how •is• the dead ball era handled? Stats before and after aren't remotely comparable. Likewise when SPs were making a trillion starts and pitching full games.

So baseball history, therefore HoF players, are not a level playing field. Game changed, players changed, rules changed. As it stands now, not having one of the greatest pitchers of all time I'm the HoF is a blight on the sport. He might suck as a human being, but I watched Clemons in person enough to know that PED or not, he had mastery over the ball like no other I've witnessed.

If a couple jackasses did it, totally different and they're aberrations and a pox on an era. I'd bet almost every All Star in the mid 90s used at some point. They had to to compete. I can promise you if I knew guys used and got away, and it gave them an advantage which results in me losing or making millions more a year? No sane person takes the high road for morality alone if it costs them big $$$. In which case, label it the PED era and just elect everyone including the bastards like Bonds and McG.

As it stands now, it's making a mockery of the sport. It's putting even more negative attention on baseball than just electing them all. That isn't good for anyone, certainly not for the game's reputation. It's over and done with, part of history. Accept it and move on.

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #78: January 10, 2013, 08:36:23 AM »
I just remember feeling that Edgar was impossible to get out. I had no home team then, and the Bronx is near, so I paid attention to Seattle.

In all, none of them deserved to make the HoF. Bernie Williams deserves to be in a hall of really really fine players, but not HoF. Maybe Dale Murphy. The others? I'll look up Biggio, but he never made an impression. Griffey, yes, and Bonds would have been if he'd continued to be that sleek, fast, .300 hitting 25 HR guy, rather than the android he became.

Others from that time? No.

Edgar Martinez played 2055 MLB matches, only 592 of them in the field (3B/1B).

As with Harold Baines who just lost his eligibility recently...sorry, no Cooperstown for anyone who played most of his career at DH.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #79: January 10, 2013, 09:23:57 AM »
Paul Molitor would like to have a word with you.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #80: January 10, 2013, 09:31:43 AM »
Lumping Maddux and Griffey and guys who were most likely clean in with Barry Bonds and calling the whole crew PED-tainted doesn't strike me as being fair, either.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #81: January 10, 2013, 09:36:05 AM »
Lumping Maddux and Griffey and guys who were most likely clean in with Barry Bonds and calling the whole crew PED-tainted doesn't strike me as being fair, either.


fun read

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/402593-why-is-ken-griffey-jr-exempt-from-the-steroids-discussion

(yes, it's bleacher report) I don't like the way people latch onto a couple of guys (usually Maddux and Griffey) and proclaim them clean- Griffey has just as many positive tests as Piazza or Sosa. If you're going to condem an era, condem the era, otherwise don't just assume certain guys were clean

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #82: January 10, 2013, 09:56:57 AM »
Griffey had a much more normal career arc.  His best years did not come when he was nearly 40 years old like Bonds.  What Bonds did was clearly not natural.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #83: January 10, 2013, 10:05:43 AM »
Griffey had a much more normal career arc.  His best years did not come when he was nearly 40 years old like Bonds.  What Bonds did was clearly not natural.

so is never tested positive + normal career arc the template? Piazza had a normal career arc- best years in his 20s (age 28 was his best year) then tailing off into his 30s

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #84: January 10, 2013, 10:06:39 AM »
Paul Molitor would like to have a word with you.

2683 matches played, 1495 in the field (55.7% of total) per baseball-reference.com; also, per same source, in his career (1978-98) he did not have a majority-DH season till 1991.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #85: January 10, 2013, 10:23:37 AM »
Sure, but he wouldn't be in the HOF had he not moved to DH.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #86: January 10, 2013, 10:29:13 AM »
so is never tested positive + normal career arc the template? Piazza had a normal career arc- best years in his 20s (age 28 was his best year) then tailing off into his 30s

I never said there was a template.  You just asked me to comment on why I suspect Griffey did not use steroids. 

Maybe Piazza belongs in the Hall, maybe not - I don't know what info is out there about his steroid use and why he is suspected. 

What I do think is that Bonds should definitely be excluded.  Clemens too.  What they did was so out of line with 150 years of baseball history. 

Letting the voters decide based on the totality of information out there is probably the best way to do this.  It's messy and impefect - I totally agree with that.  But letting them all in or keeping them all out is worse, in my opinion.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #87: January 10, 2013, 10:32:51 AM »
Not so much why you suspect griffey was clean so much as why people condem large swaths of players (the overwhelming majority with speculation st best), then choose a couple of guys to exempt based on no real evidence (or at least just as little as the condem guys based on). I'm for all in or all out. Cooperstown has stuff from most of them, and that should remain, but the actual plaques are different, and I don't agree with differentiating based on who had the best smile or the media liked the most (any other reason Griffey doesn't get suspected?)

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #88: January 10, 2013, 10:50:02 AM »
OK - I disagree with the all in or all out thing but I can see where you are coming from.  But - I don't think the only reason Bonds is suspect is that the media doesn't like him.

Offline comish4lif

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #89: January 10, 2013, 10:57:19 AM »
I don't think an all or nothing answer works, either.  I want to see Griffey in the Hall, for example.  Best we can do is muddle our way through.  Nobody will be perfectly happy with it, but that fits with what that era has come to represent (Barry Bonds Jr. holds the home run record, etc.).
I don't believe that Griffey, Jr. did steroids. But, I don't know that for a fact either.

I don't see how the writers can put the stink on some players with little to no actual evidence, then not do the same to others.

Steroid profile wise, Junior Griffey had a nice steady career with some peaks, but he brokedown pretty quickly and trouble staying healthy after steroid testing became more prevalent in the early 2000's. That's as much evidence as anyone has on Piazza or Bagwell.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #90: January 10, 2013, 11:08:11 AM »
If you want my opinion on Piazza and Bagwell, I think I'd probably vote for them.  You're right that there doesn't seem to be much evidence against them. 

I don't know where the line needs to be drawn - maybe just with Bonds and he pays the price for the errors of all the other PED-users of the era.  But I do think that Barry Bonds should not be in the Hall of Fame. 

Offline comish4lif

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #91: January 10, 2013, 11:18:56 AM »
One thing that I really think that stinks about this is guys like Piazza and Bagwell. They retired 5+ years ago.

If you are a writer, a journalist, and believe that these 2 (or substitute the player of your choice) did steroids, do your damn job. Do the investigation, find the evidence and write the article. Then, you can leave them off your ballot. Until then, you're just a lazy writer looking for some extra publicity.

All of these writers that gave Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Piazza the MVPs, Cy Youngs, and Silver Slugger awards, they can kiss my taint. Where was the outrage and the investigation when it was happening, when something could have been done to change the outcome? But they did nothing but take the paycheck that came with the increased interest in MLB at the time.

Online blue911

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #92: January 10, 2013, 11:25:34 AM »
One thing that I really think that stinks about this is guys like Piazza and Bagwell. They retired 5+ years ago.

If you are a writer, a journalist, and believe that these 2 (or substitute the player of your choice) did steroids, do your damn job. Do the investigation, find the evidence and write the article. Then, you can leave them off your ballot. Until then, you're just a lazy writer looking for some extra publicity.

All of these writers that gave Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Piazza the MVPs, Cy Youngs, and Silver Slugger awards, they can kiss my taint. Where was the outrage and the investigation when it was happening, when something could have been done to change the outcome? But they did nothing but take the paycheck that came with the increased interest in MLB at the time.

This sums up my feelings.

I'm a Big Hall guy so I think the more the merrier, it's a museum after all. Players can put elected in the Hall without honoring them. Clemens plaque could  read " Won XXX games, 7 Cy Young Awards and was mentioned 82 times in the Mitchell Report. Threw his wife under the bus during a congressional hearing and sold out his best friend. "

EDIT: And if Clemens wants to attend his induction ceremony knowing that is how his plaque will read, more power to him.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #93: January 10, 2013, 11:33:02 AM »
I think a plague in the hall should be about veneration- Cobb's doesn't include general jerk who slid cleats high, Perry's doesn't read cheater

Offline imref

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #94: January 10, 2013, 11:33:25 AM »
I'm fairly certain Pete Rose has some things in the hall.

yes he does.  The museum is next to (and attached) to the hall.

Any serious baseball fan really needs to get up there and visit that place.  I think it is about an 8 hour drive from D.C., and the town is absolutely beautiful.

Offline welch

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #95: January 10, 2013, 02:29:56 PM »
I mentioned it earlier... Having never been to the HoF and too lazy this morning to look it up, how •is• the dead ball era handled? Stats before and after aren't remotely comparable. Likewise when SPs were making a trillion starts and pitching full games.

So baseball history, therefore HoF players, are not a level playing field. Game changed, players changed, rules changed. As it stands now, not having one of the greatest pitchers of all time I'm the HoF is a blight on the sport. He might suck as a human being, but I watched Clemons in person enough to know that PED or not, he had mastery over the ball like no other I've witnessed.

If a couple jackasses did it, totally different and they're aberrations and a pox on an era. I'd bet almost every All Star in the mid 90s used at some point. They had to to compete. I can promise you if I knew guys used and got away, and it gave them an advantage which results in me losing or making millions more a year? No sane person takes the high road for morality alone if it costs them big $$$. In which case, label it the PED era and just elect everyone including the bastards like Bonds and McG.

As it stands now, it's making a mockery of the sport. It's putting even more negative attention on baseball than just electing them all. That isn't good for anyone, certainly not for the game's reputation. It's over and done with, part of history. Accept it and move on.

I think Bonds and Clemens cheated in a way that Ty Cobb did not. I saw Bonds as a young player with the Pirates, and as an older player with the Giants. Chemicals made the difference. Cobb cheated in the same way that players have always cheated...kick a ball loose or intimidate a second-baseman or brow-beat an umpire. Some old-time pitchers threw the spitter, but so did Don Sutton and Whitey Ford.

I don't want to compare Bonds or Clemens or McGwire to other players of the same era.

Can we compare players from different eras? Yes, if we mentally adjust for different circumstances. There have not been many changes: hardly any to the rules, considerable improvement to the gloves and catching gear, changes to the ball fields.

Players from the dead-ball era were voted in (or not) by writers in the '30s...and later by the veterans panel. Even though the style of play had changed, most of the voters had seen the players they judged.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #96: January 10, 2013, 03:09:06 PM »
I guess the issue about the continued presence of Cobb and Speaker is the credible evidence of gambling. why are they in the Hall and Rose and Shoeless Joe are not?
http://espn.go.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1233060.html
Quote
1926 - Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were permitted by Ban Johnson to resign from baseball near the end of the 1926 season after former pitcher Dutch Leonard charged that Cobb, Speaker and Smoky Joe Wood had joined him just before the 1919 World Series in betting on a game they all knew was fixed. Leonard presented letters and other documents to Johnson, and Johnson thought they would be so potentially damaging to baseball in the wake of the Black Sox scandal that he paid Leonard $20,000 to have them suppressed. Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis exposed the cover-up and the eventual fallout forced Johnson out his job as president of the league he had created. Cobb and Speaker vehemently denied any wrongdoing, Cobb saying that "There has never been a baseball game in my life that I played in that I knew was fixed,? and that the only games he ever bet on were two series games in 1919, when he lost $150 on games thrown by the Sox. He claimed his letters to Leonard had been misunderstood, that he was merely speaking of business investments. Landis took the case under advisement and eventually let both players remain in baseball because they had not been found guilty of fixing any game themselves. It was after this case, though, that Landis instituted the rule mandating that any player found guilty of betting on baseball would be suspended for a year and that any player found to have bet on his own team would be barred for life. Cobb later claimed that the attorneys representing him and Speaker had brokered their reinstatement by threatening to expose further scandal in baseball if the two were not cleared.


Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #97: January 10, 2013, 03:39:20 PM »


Sammy approves.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #98: January 10, 2013, 04:02:08 PM »
Use whatever metaphor you want - things are still never black and white.  And I realize you can't be perfect and no line drawn will please everyone.  But you can still try.  Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens played in the same era as Ken Griffey Jr. and Greg Maddux.  You can't, in my opinion, include both and you can't exclude both.  So you try to draw a line somewhere in between.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm with HalfSmokes on this one. Either all in or all out.

I ain't sayin' yea or nay but what are you basing this on?

Ty Cobb - Welch's post explains the gist of it. He was especially known for sharpening his spikes to severely injure fielders on the basepaths. He also gambled heavily and is suspected to have thrown games.

Hank Aaron, Willie Mays - They, along with virtually every other player, took amphetamines or "greenies" which were like the ultimate pre-game/pre-workout.

Other players like Gaylord Perry are well known for doctoring their pitches.

Hell, Rickey Henderson is suspected of using steroids himself.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #99: January 10, 2013, 04:36:26 PM »
Rickey doesn't need steroids. Rickey has Rickey and that's all Rickey needs to be Rickey.