Author Topic: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013  (Read 1631 times)

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Offline mitlen

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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2013
« Reply #25: January 09, 2013, 01:36:21 PM »
Leave them in. Hell baseball loves cheaters crooks racists and all sorts of scallywags

Damn, sounds like Congress.

Online blue911

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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2013
« Reply #26: January 09, 2013, 01:36:54 PM »
Damn, sounds like Congress.

Pretty much

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2013
« Reply #27: January 09, 2013, 02:05:51 PM »
And the envelope, please...what? http://espn.go.com/mlb/

Offline Tokeydog

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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2013
« Reply #28: January 09, 2013, 02:35:02 PM »
Nada

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #29: January 09, 2013, 02:43:58 PM »
Changed title to reflect reality.

Offline imref

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #30: January 09, 2013, 03:04:53 PM »
No Biggio?  Wow.

Offline imref

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Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #32: January 09, 2013, 03:05:59 PM »
Ironic that the people complaining about the disgrace to baseball are the ones disgracing the game. The BBWAA is really horrible. I'm really annoyed that Lofton got screwed like that. Berne Williams got more votes than him.

Also as to my previous post I included Piazza, Bagwell, and Walker because as far as I can remember they never got more ccontroversy than suspicion.

Offline imref

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #33: January 09, 2013, 03:11:43 PM »
i would have voted for Schilling, Walker, Raines, Piazza, and Biggio.  I think all of them get in at some point. 

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #34: January 09, 2013, 03:12:43 PM »
The voting, from baseball-reference.com (currently on homepage); percentage numbers by each name are for (1) percentage of this year's ballots and (2) where applicable, percentage of ballots in last year's voting:

Less than 75% of vote, but still on ballot
Craig Biggio 388 68.2% 1st Yr
Jack Morris 385 67.7% 66.7%
Jeff Bagwell 339 59.6% 56.0%
Mike Piazza 329 57.8% 1st Yr
Tim Raines 297 52.2% 48.7%
Lee Smith 272 47.8% 50.6%
Curt Schilling 221 38.8% 1st Yr
Roger Clemens 214 37.6% 1st Yr
Barry Bonds 206 36.2% 1st Yr
Edgar Martinez 204 35.9% 36.5%
Alan Trammell 191 33.6% 36.8%
Larry Walker 123 21.6% 22.9%
Fred McGriff 118 20.7% 23.9%
Dale Murphy** 106 18.6% 14.5%
Mark McGwire 96 16.9% 19.5%
Don Mattingly 75 13.2% 17.8%
Sammy Sosa 71 12.5% 1st Yr
Rafael Palmeiro 50 8.8% 12.6%

Less than 5%, will not be on next year's ballot
Bernie Williams 19 3.3% 9.6%
Kenny Lofton 18 3.2% 1st Yr
Sandy Alomar 16 2.8% 1st Yr
Julio Franco 6 1.1% 1st Yr
David Wells 5 0.9% 1st Yr
Steve Finley 4 0.7% 1st Yr
Shawn Green 2 0.4% 1st Yr
Aaron Sele 1 0.2% 1st Yr
Reggie Sanders 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Jeff Cirillo 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Woody Williams 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Rondell White 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Ryan Klesko 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Roberto Hernandez 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Royce Clayton 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Jeff Conine 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Mike Stanton 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Jose Mesa 0 0.0% 1st Yr
Todd Walker 0 0.0% 1st Yr

**15 yrs on ballot, will not be on next year's ballot

Offline houston-nat

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #35: January 09, 2013, 03:16:58 PM »
When I was a little kid Kenny Lofton was one of my idols.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #36: January 09, 2013, 03:20:18 PM »
Zuck's ballot:

http://www.natsinsider.com/2013/01/my-2013-hall-of-fame-ballot.html


I like that he explained all of his reasoning but he's too old school minded for me. Using average and RBIs to evaluate offensive value? Counting stats?  Bleh. I also dislike how he completely disregarded Trammell's position and defense; I wonder if he thinks Barry Larkin deserved to get in.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2013
« Reply #37: January 09, 2013, 03:20:37 PM »

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #38: January 09, 2013, 03:22:14 PM »
I like that he explained all of his reasoning but he's too old school minded for me. Using average and RBIs to evaluate offensive value? Counting stats?  Bleh. I also dislike how he completely disregarded Trammell's position and defense; I wonder if he thinks Barry Larkin deserved to get in.

ratios are great for evaluating moving forward, but for the hall, it should be about what actually happened, ie counting stats

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #39: January 09, 2013, 03:35:52 PM »
ratios are great for evaluating moving forward, but for the hall, it should be about what actually happened, ie counting stats

I suppose I should clarify. Counting stats aren't useless when evaluating players for the hall but they can often be misleading. Edgar Martinez was one of the best hitters in baseball for over a decade and really one of the best hitters of all time. To keep him out of the hall for failing to reach some arbitrary number of homeruns is ridiculous.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #40: January 09, 2013, 03:45:02 PM »
The DH thing has as much to do with Edgar Martinez as the numbers he put up. 

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #41: January 09, 2013, 03:56:32 PM »
The DH thing has as much to do with Edgar Martinez as the numbers he put up. 

this, if he played a terrible 1b or lf, I think he'd get in

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #42: January 09, 2013, 04:15:12 PM »
Essentially, Edgar's offense was close to Miggy Cabrera's except his slugging was composed of more doubles and fewer homers and he drew a lot more walks.   .933 OPS v. .956, playing the last third of his career in SAFECO.  By wOBA, Edgar was .405, Miggy .402, and by wRC+, they are both 148 (48% better than league average at creating runs, adjusted for parks).  Arguably, by DH'ng instead of wearing a glove like Miggy, he did less damage to his team.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #43: January 09, 2013, 04:50:47 PM »
Essentially, Edgar's offense was close to Miggy Cabrera's except his slugging was composed of more doubles and fewer homers and he drew a lot more walks.   .933 OPS v. .956, playing the last third of his career in SAFECO.  By wOBA, Edgar was .405, Miggy .402, and by wRC+, they are both 148 (48% better than league average at creating runs, adjusted for parks).  Arguably, by DH'ng instead of wearing a glove like Miggy, he did less damage to his team.

  :clap: Excellent breakdown. I especially agree with the bonded.

Offline welch

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #44: January 09, 2013, 04:53:18 PM »
Essentially, Edgar's offense was close to Miggy Cabrera's except his slugging was composed of more doubles and fewer homers and he drew a lot more walks.   .933 OPS v. .956, playing the last third of his career in SAFECO.  By wOBA, Edgar was .405, Miggy .402, and by wRC+, they are both 148 (48% better than league average at creating runs, adjusted for parks).  Arguably, by DH'ng instead of wearing a glove like Miggy, he did less damage to his team.

I just remember feeling that Edgar was impossible to get out. I had no home team then, and the Bronx is near, so I paid attention to Seattle.

In all, none of them deserved to make the HoF. Bernie Williams deserves to be in a hall of really really fine players, but not HoF. Maybe Dale Murphy. The others? I'll look up Biggio, but he never made an impression. Griffey, yes, and Bonds would have been if he'd continued to be that sleek, fast, .300 hitting 25 HR guy, rather than the android he became.

Others from that time? No.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #45: January 09, 2013, 04:57:10 PM »
Clemens is probably the greatest pitcher of his generation. He's off the charts for every HOF indicator on baseball reference (one has him as the third most hall worthy pitcher ever, http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml). I still think he and bonds never get in though 

Offline imref

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #46: January 09, 2013, 05:06:20 PM »
Clemens is probably the greatest pitcher of his generation. He's off the charts for every HOF indicator on baseball reference (one has him as the third most hall worthy pitcher ever, http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml). I still think he and bonds never get in though 


I agree.  So you'll have the two greatest hitters and one of the greatest pitchers on the outside looking in.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #47: January 09, 2013, 05:47:24 PM »
Clemens and especially Bonds made a mockery of baseball.  They don't belong in the Hall of Fame.

Offline imref

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #48: January 09, 2013, 05:50:41 PM »
Clemens and especially Bonds made a mockery of baseball.  They don't belong in the Hall of Fame.

Only suggests that their PED histories be put on their plaques.

For Bonds:

Quote
HIT 762 HOMERS IN A 22-YEAR CAREER TO BECOME ALL-TIME HOME RUN KING. HIT 73 HOMERS IN 2001 TO SET SINGLE-SEASON RECORD. WON SEVEN MVP AWARDS, MOST EVER. HAD 2,935 HITS, AND HIS 2,558 WALKS ARE A RECORD. TESTIFIED IN 2003 THAT HE USED PERFORMANCE-ENHANCING DRUGS, BUT NOT KNOWINGLY; WAS CONVICTED ON ONE COUNT OF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE RELATED TO HIS TESTIMONY.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: The Empty Set - HoF Class of 2013
« Reply #49: January 09, 2013, 06:05:16 PM »
Even with an asterisk next to their names, I still don't think they belong.