Author Topic: Fuel efficiency (split from Nationals Virginia License Plate)  (Read 629 times)

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Offline HalfSmokes

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The whole special fuel plate thing is absurd, a toyota Yaris or a small VW Diesel will get better MPG that a hybrid SUV, yet they don't qualify

Offline tomterp

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #1: January 07, 2013, 12:20:40 PM »
The whole special fuel plate thing is absurd, a toyota Yaris or a small VW Diesel will get better MPG that a hybrid SUV, yet they don't qualify

Plus the primary purpose of the HOV lanes was to reduce traffic by encouraging ride sharing.  The hybrid loophole undercuts the rationale.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #2: January 07, 2013, 12:24:09 PM »
Everyone should ride motorcycles.  Obviously. 

Offline mitlen

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #3: January 07, 2013, 12:43:09 PM »
Everyone should ride motorcycles.  Obviously. 

I have mine.   Can you get the special tags for bikes too?

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #4: January 07, 2013, 05:45:14 PM »
Plus the primary purpose of the HOV lanes was to reduce traffic by encouraging ride sharing.  The hybrid loophole undercuts the rationale.

New hybrids haven't been able to in a couple years, they just haven't reversed the law on early adopters.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #5: January 07, 2013, 05:50:37 PM »
The whole special fuel plate thing is absurd, a toyota Yaris or a small VW Diesel will get better MPG that a hybrid SUV, yet they don't qualify
Which conserves more gasoline over 400 miles of commuting, switching from a 35 MPG highway Saturn to a 50 MPG Prius, or switching from a 20 MPG Escalade to a 28 MPG Hybrid Highlander?

Getting the Escalade driver into the Highlander saves 5.7 gallons over 400 miles.  The Saturn to Prius change only saves less than 3.5 gallons.

If we measured gasoline efficiency in terms of gallons per mile rather than miles per gallon, we might get different purchasing behavior that results in less gas consumption in the current product class mix.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #6: January 07, 2013, 06:54:49 PM »
Ride a bike or get freaked.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #7: January 07, 2013, 08:55:30 PM »
Which conserves more gasoline over 400 miles of commuting, switching from a 35 MPG highway Saturn to a 50 MPG Prius, or switching from a 20 MPG Escalade to a 28 MPG Hybrid Highlander?

Getting the Escalade driver into the Highlander saves 5.7 gallons over 400 miles.  The Saturn to Prius change only saves less than 3.5 gallons.

If we measured gasoline efficiency in terms of gallons per mile rather than miles per gallon, we might get different purchasing behavior that results in less gas consumption in the current product class mix.

which is great, but the hybrid SUV still consumes more than the saturn- you're rewarding the Highlander driver for 1) being able to afford a hybrid SUV and 2) being less bad than the non-hybrid suv driver. If that's all it takes, someone switching from an old v-10 M5 (17 mpg highway) to a new v-8 M5 (22 highway) should get the same benefit

Offline Mathguy

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #8: January 07, 2013, 09:06:56 PM »
Only a lawyer would try such rationale

The only way the state government can draw the line on who does/doesn't get such a benefit is by the bottom line.  The delta change in improvement is too difficult for the state to process/enforce.  And a delta change logic leads to such sillyness like giving congradulations to someone for giving up a clunker for a V-8

Which conserves more gasoline over 400 miles of commuting, switching from a 35 MPG highway Saturn to a 50 MPG Prius, or switching from a 20 MPG Escalade to a 28 MPG Hybrid Highlander?

Getting the Escalade driver into the Highlander saves 5.7 gallons over 400 miles.  The Saturn to Prius change only saves less than 3.5 gallons.

If we measured gasoline efficiency in terms of gallons per mile rather than miles per gallon, we might get different purchasing behavior that results in less gas consumption in the current product class mix.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #9: January 07, 2013, 09:09:08 PM »
So, does the Highlander or Saturn have the highest WAR?

Online Nathan

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #10: January 07, 2013, 09:11:31 PM »
which is great, but the hybrid SUV still consumes more than the saturn- you're rewarding the Highlander driver for 1) being able to afford a hybrid SUV and 2) being less bad than the non-hybrid suv driver. If that's all it takes, someone switching from an old v-10 M5 (17 mpg highway) to a new v-8 M5 (22 highway) should get the same benefit

But you still end up having to drive a Highlander every day.

Which conserves more gasoline over 400 miles of commuting, switching from a 35 MPG highway Saturn to a 50 MPG Prius, or switching from a 20 MPG Escalade to a 28 MPG Hybrid Highlander?

Getting the Escalade driver into the Highlander saves 5.7 gallons over 400 miles.  The Saturn to Prius change only saves less than 3.5 gallons.

If we measured gasoline efficiency in terms of gallons per mile rather than miles per gallon, we might get different purchasing behavior that results in less gas consumption in the current product class mix.

This is how they measure in most of Europe, liters per 100 km.

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #11: January 07, 2013, 11:26:43 PM »
Its a "CLEAN FUEL" vehicle.  Meaning it supposedly saves the environment by running on Electric at least part of the time.  Yeah, I know.  My Elantra gets better milage than some SUVs.

Quote
Can you get the special tags for bikes too?

Not Clean Fuel, but many titles do come in a Motorcycle plate. 

 It's just smaller! (4 OR 5 characters instead of 6)

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #12: January 08, 2013, 08:54:12 AM »
Only a lawyer would try such rationale

The only way the state government can draw the line on who does/doesn't get such a benefit is by the bottom line.  The delta change in improvement is too difficult for the state to process/enforce.  And a delta change logic leads to such sillyness like giving congradulations to someone for giving up a clunker for a V-8
Plenty of folks who work on mileage issues for a living who think gallons per mile (or liters per 100 km) is inherrently better than the way we regulate.  Economists more than lawyers, but policy folks in general.  Read up a bit.  You've got the time down in Duck.

Sure, the ideal conservation case for would be to put everyone in Leafs with batteries powered by solar arrays and wind turbines, but that isn't happening without a major change in consumer, voter, and political preferences, and would have safety and employment implications.  In terms of reduction in gasoline demand, at least in the near term, it is more important to improve the least efficient vehicles in your fleet by a larger percent on an MPG basis than it is to improve more efficient cars by more MPG.  Get folks to move to high-rises in Arlington and take mass transit is great, but when you are dealing with development that has taken place in Loudoun and Stafford, with 2 car families that commute in different directions, and at least one vehicle has to be able to sit 2 kids and maybe the baggage like a stroller, getting that vehicle more efficient will save more gas than getting the other car changed from an Accord to a Prius.

As for enforcement, what gets measured gets managed.   At least with new cars bought from dealers, this is easy to enforce, in comparison to other standards.  Most of the measures that are taken now to rate cars efficiency at the manufacturer and ensure proper operation on the road can be applied to gallons per mile format.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #13: January 08, 2013, 09:19:54 AM »
Plenty of folks who work on mileage issues for a living who think gallons per mile (or liters per 100 km) is inherrently better than the way we regulate.  Economists more than lawyers, but policy folks in general.  Read up a bit.  You've got the time down in Duck.

Sure, the ideal conservation case for would be to put everyone in Leafs with batteries powered by solar arrays and wind turbines, but that isn't happening without a major change in consumer, voter, and political preferences, and would have safety and employment implications.  In terms of reduction in gasoline demand, at least in the near term, it is more important to improve the least efficient vehicles in your fleet by a larger percent on an MPG basis than it is to improve more efficient cars by more MPG.  Get folks to move to high-rises in Arlington and take mass transit is great, but when you are dealing with development that has taken place in Loudoun and Stafford, with 2 car families that commute in different directions, and at least one vehicle has to be able to sit 2 kids and maybe the baggage like a stroller, getting that vehicle more efficient will save more gas than getting the other car changed from an Accord to a Prius.

As for enforcement, what gets measured gets managed.   At least with new cars bought from dealers, this is easy to enforce, in comparison to other standards.  Most of the measures that are taken now to rate cars efficiency at the manufacturer and ensure proper operation on the road can be applied to gallons per mile format.

you can reward improvement leading to absurd and disperate outcomes - person A going from leaf to prius gets no benefit, person B going from Suburban to Charger does, or you can just make gas taxes higher and use that to encourage different behavior (remember everyone desperately ditching their SUVs in 08?)

Offline imref

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #14: January 08, 2013, 09:29:19 AM »
and if everyone goes to a Leaf are we replacing our dependency on foreign oil with a new dependency on China for rare earth minerals??

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Re: Nationals Virginia License Plate
« Reply #15: January 08, 2013, 09:32:23 AM »
and if everyone goes to a Leaf are we replacing our dependency on foreign oil with a new dependency on China for rare earth minerals??

not to mention Congo for Cobalt

Offline Minty Fresh

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Offline Kevrock

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Pretty awesome quote from MDS.

I'd love to see him bike my commute daily, though  :lol:

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Fuel is way too cheap in this country.  So are cars, especially large ones.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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I'd love to see him bike my commute daily, though  :lol:

No problem, and I outweigh you by at least a 100lbs.

Offline Tyler Durden

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and if everyone goes to a Leaf are we replacing our dependency on foreign oil with a new dependency on China for rare earth minerals??

We need an American-built car that will run on Big Macs, sub-prime mortgages, bullets, and freedom and democracy.

Offline HalfSmokes

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We need an American-built car that will run on Big Macs, sub-prime mortgages, bullets, and freedom and democracy.


we had one


and we sold the company to the chinese

Offline Tyler Durden

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Good point.  And where did you get a picture of my car??

Offline Kevrock

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No problem, and I outweigh you by at least a 100lbs.

Roughly 30 miles a day I believe, I actually thought it would be more. If I'm not mistaken that's your goal this year.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Roughly 30 miles a day I believe, I actually thought it would be more. If I'm not mistaken that's your goal this year.

Yup, I'm losing ~2lbs a week so by June that should take less than two hours.