Author Topic: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays  (Read 10960 times)

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Offline Vega

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Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #201: November 15, 2012, 07:49:33 AM »
I wonder if Bryce's tweets constitute tampering?

That was my first thought when I saw it, and I do think it constitutes tampering.

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #202: November 15, 2012, 07:53:01 AM »
Does the Marlins trading away their entire team constitute tampering? If BGS demands a trade, it's not because of Bryce.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #203: November 15, 2012, 08:05:41 AM »
Does the Marlins trading away their entire team constitute tampering? If BGS demands a trade, it's not because of Bryce.

The Marlins trade constitutes something very evil which I find hard to characterize but "tampering" doesn't describe it.

Nevertheless, I think that Harper encouraging Stanton to come play with the Nats is tampering for the following reason.  Say what we will about the Marlins move, they didn't do anything against the rules and presumably there is a business plan behind it. One component of that plan is to keep Stanton as part of the team.  Whether that's so they can get a better price when they sell, or because they want to rebuild around him, I don't know.   But by deciding to keep him, they want to keep him happy.  At least, keep his level of disgruntlement to a minimum. Harper encouraging him to want to be traded only makes him more disgruntled then he already is.   To me, that's tampering.

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #204: November 15, 2012, 08:24:22 AM »
It's just a player saying "We'll take you on our team."

He's not saying "Demand a trade to play for us."

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #205: November 15, 2012, 08:36:13 AM »
I'm sure if it really is tampering something will happen.  It probably isn't, but I had to think about it.  It's on a tweet, so that is new ground, but I'm not sure it is much different than what Jeter and Pedroia talk about in a batting cage during the WBC.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #206: November 15, 2012, 08:52:12 AM »
It's just a player saying "We'll take you on our team."

Put yourself in Stanton's shoes right now... a sinking feeling of desperation and depression.  Loria needs to make him happy to be with the Marlins. A requisite first step in that process is resignation: Stanton  needs to be convinced that he is stuck there -  no way out.  Any encouragement that there is a way out runs counter to that process.  A Nats player saying "We'll take you on our team" just encourages him to want to get out. 

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #207: November 15, 2012, 08:53:35 AM »
Put yourself in Stanton's shoes right now... a sinking feeling of desperation and depression.  Loria needs to make him happy to be with the Marlins. A requisite first step in that process is resignation: Stanton  needs to be convinced that he is stuck there -  no way out.  Any encouragement that there is a way out runs counter to that process.  A Nats player saying "We'll take you on our team" just encourages him to want to get out.

And you know this because NotNats told you?

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #208: November 15, 2012, 09:04:38 AM »
Put yourself in Stanton's shoes right now... a sinking feeling of desperation and depression.  Loria needs to make him happy to be with the Marlins. A requisite first step in that process is resignation: Stanton  needs to be convinced that he is stuck there -  no way out.  Any encouragement that there is a way out runs counter to that process.  A Nats player saying "We'll take you on our team" just encourages him to want to get out. 

I doubt he needs harper reminding him how bad his franchise is


Offline NationalHeat

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #210: November 15, 2012, 10:19:16 AM »
I've decided that I am going to defend the Marlins and their ownership on this move.

Suppose you are the Marlins. You are one of the less profitable teams in baseball and your players usually leave once they are FA's, but you are pretty good at IDing and developing prospects, and you just spent a lot of money on FA's. But the chemistry or whatever just didn't work out, and you didn't contend with all those FA's on your team.

Do you:
(1) Keep them and their backloaded contracts on the books, hoping that magic will somehow strike the same group differently, and risking those contracts becoming untradeable?
(2) Do something else?

The Marlins did something else. For whatever reason, the current crew wasn't getting it done, so they dumped them (along with players likely to become FA's and leave soon), reloaded with prospects, and cleaned up $80 million in payroll. Now, you have a new core to rebuild around, and the option to sign FA help around that core once you see a window opening up.

The Marlins, in my view, are one of the most shrewdly managed teams in baseball. It doesn't always work out, but they're highly Vulcan-like. Dismantling the 1997 and 2003 WS teams was shrewd: most teams don't repeat the same performance the next season and players are at their peak after a WS win. Compare the 1997 Marlins to, say, the 2002 Angels, who kept everyone and became a mediocre team.

They only have a repuation of developing good players, built on the back of Dave Dombrowski.

Look at some of the nobodys they've drafted in round 1 lately.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #211: November 15, 2012, 03:07:03 PM »

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #212: November 15, 2012, 04:35:22 PM »
"The truth is more like this: Selig saw in McCourt someone dangerous and reckless with baseball's most prized possession, local television rights. McCourt was willing to pawn them off for an under-market price to help cover his debts. Selig refused to let the Dodgers set the market low, fought like hell to make sure that didn't happen, won that fight, watched the Dodgers sell for $2.15 billion and is watching them turn into the West Coast Yankees."

Wow.  Just...wow.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #213: November 15, 2012, 06:36:58 PM »
Anyone hear Bowden this afternoon on XM89, around 2PM?   He makes a pretty convincing case for what the Marlins did.

Offline blue911

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #214: November 15, 2012, 06:48:25 PM »


If it wasn't a salary dump, why didn't they shop the players to multiple teams?

Offline houston-nat

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #215: November 15, 2012, 06:52:27 PM »

If it wasn't a salary dump, why didn't they shop the players to multiple teams?

Jose Reyes was talked about with the Diamondbacks - just read that somewhere.

Offline blue911

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #216: November 15, 2012, 07:06:28 PM »
Jose Reyes was talked about with the Diamondbacks - just read that somewhere.

 The winter meetings are still a week away.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #217: November 15, 2012, 09:21:55 PM »
Cherington was after Reyes too, but he said the deal that was made was much bigger than the Red sox were willing to take on.

Offline PebbleBall

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #218: November 15, 2012, 09:23:51 PM »
Anyone hear Bowden this afternoon on XM89, around 2PM?   He makes a pretty convincing case for what the Marlins did.

If there's one thing we know about Bowden, it's that he knows how to make a convincing case for a crappy move.

Offline imref

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #219: November 16, 2012, 12:53:58 AM »
If there's one thing we know about Bowden, it's that he knows how to make a convincing case for a crappy move.

maybe bowen has some inside info that the marlins will ultimately flip all their new prospects for Lastings Milledge?

Offline Slateman

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #220: November 16, 2012, 12:04:14 PM »
Seems like a good move for the Marlins. They had no shot at winning after trading Ramirez. Dumped all their money and got prospects in return.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #221: November 16, 2012, 01:32:45 PM »
I'm trying to see it from their perspective (as Bowden tried to do). Not that I have any insight into their thinking, but it is reasonable to conjecture that they said, we won 64 games with this roster, so there is no reason to assume we would win more than 64 games next season with the same roster.  (And of course, the other side of that argument is, without Ozzie, but with a real manager, they might have won 95.)

It would not be fair to the fans to stand pat if it meant another 64 win season.  If by trading those guy it meant (1) with the new makeup including the prospects, it could mean 80 wins in 2012; and (2) by spending the money recovered by the salary dump on more prospects and on new and younger free agents, it could pave the way to build a winner for many years. That, rather than letting those guys age in a couple of year and leave the team not only without decent players but also without funds.

It all depends on how they spend the recovered money.  If they pocket it, then they will have perpetrated a crime on baseball.  If they spend it to improve the team, that's a different story.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #222: November 16, 2012, 01:39:12 PM »
If they spend it to improve the team, that's a different story.

what free agent will ever sign there now?

Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #223: November 16, 2012, 01:43:47 PM »
what free agent will ever sign there now?

The proposition that no free agent would sign with the Marlins is a contradiction.  The Marlins made the trade either (a) to pocket the money (and in the process ruin the team), or (b) to improve the team in the long run. If (a) then they won't be recruiting free agents.  If they recruit free agents it means they want to build a winner.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #224: November 16, 2012, 01:47:43 PM »
If they recruit free agents it means they want to build a winner.

which is fine from a team's perspective, but if you're a free agent with choices, you see a team (which incidentally doesn't give no trade clauses) who just recruited a slew of free agents to sunny florida (which has no income tax), then a year later shipped them to canada (which is tax hell, especially for an american ex-pat who doesn't like being taxed twice on income)