Author Topic: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays  (Read 10410 times)

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Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #150: November 14, 2012, 09:14:38 AM »
there's one aspect to this deal that i haven't heard anyone discuss yet - sorry if i missed it, but if you are a young rich guy, there are few better places in this country to play than Miami.   Guys like Reyes and Bonafacio are going to hate life in Toronto compared to South Beach.  And I'd be curious to understand the tax implications on them from this deal (no state income tax in Florida).  The guys coming to Miami are going to love life outside the ballpark, while the guys who just left aren't going to be very happy in Toronto (IMHO).

Don't taxes get cited as a reason the jays have so much trouble landing free agents?

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #151: November 14, 2012, 09:17:34 AM »
because any fool can see that the Lerners are every bit as cheap and greedy as Loria.

:nono:

You're all missing the point.  The point isn't that one is worse than the other because, let's face it, Loria is the worst of the worst and Lerners have obviously changed their ways.  My statement is that there is a double standard here when doling out negative comments about certain people and some labeling it as being "racially" tinged. 

Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #152: November 14, 2012, 09:18:24 AM »
I'm not so sure this is such a horrible move for the Marlins. Buehrle and arguably Reyes were overpaid. They get to dump those contracts before they become truly burdensome, and get prospects in return.

I could similarly rationalize the move if they had traded just Buehrle and Johnson (old, injured, overpaid), but kept Reyes (as the centerpiece) and Bonifacio (cost controlled) and said that the chemistry wasn't quite right, so we need to tweak a bit, and then signed a couple free agent pitchers.   This was a team that should have been a winner, and the right manager there would have made it work.  Ozzie was the real disaster.  They have a new manager now, and there is no reason that they needed to bust up the whole team.  Having eliminated the main problem (Ozzie) they should have given it at least one more year.

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #153: November 14, 2012, 09:33:32 AM »
...interestingly, the 'official' story on the Marlins site hasn't been updated since 23.06 last night (http://miami.marlins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121113&content_id=40277328&vkey=news_mia&c_id=mia)...and the one on the Blue Jays site since 23.14: http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121113&content_id=40277468&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #154: November 14, 2012, 09:38:56 AM »
The Commissioner gets to approve trades involving a certain amount of cash going one way or the other.  I don't know if there is much cash moving around.  Short of that, maybe there is a best interest of baseball option, but I'm guessing Loria would litigate and I don't know how that comes out.

As for the players, nightlife aside, there are huge tax implications from this move.  This is shaving tens of millions off of those deals they cut last year. 

Dave Cameron's take, picking up on Roseenthal's observation on how this hurts with FAs:

Quote
There’s no serious argument to be made that any established Major League player is going to want to play in Miami if they have the option of playing somewhere else.

This isn’t even about signing future free agents. This is about being able to retain any homegrown developed star in the future, including Giancarlo Stanton. He’s under team control for another four years, but the likelihood of him taking anything this ownership group tells him seriously just went to zero. His “I’m pissed” tweet says it all; it’s a good bet he’s already informed his agent to ask for a trade or is counting down the days until he is traded to a team that actually appears interested in winning.

And if you can’t keep a 22-year-old superstar, then what’s the point of any of this? The whole point of having cheap young Major League talent is that you can get quality performance at a low cost, allowing you to redistribute the majority of your payroll to expensive veterans and build a good team around them. But if you alienate your franchise players and have lost any credibility in negotiations with free agents, then all you are left with is a bunch of minimum salary kids who aren’t good enough to win on their own.

Developing young stars through prospect accumulation is great if you actually plan on keeping them long enough to try and win. But no one thinks that’s what Jeffrey Loria is trying to do anymore. Now, he’s just the greedy bastard who ruined baseball in Montreal, only with yet another evil deed on his resume. He’s basically a cartoon villain at this point. He’s the wench who owned the Cleveland Indians in Major League, only if she also threw kittens in a wood-chipper in her spare time.


Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #155: November 14, 2012, 09:41:45 AM »
This is a real embarrassment.  If Bud "The CHUD" Selig lets this happen he deserves to be horsewhipped with Loria.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #156: November 14, 2012, 09:43:57 AM »
Boss-
Quote
My statement is that there is a double standard here when doling out negative comments about certain people and some labeling it as being "racially" tinged. 

Well, if you are refering to PANATS and think he only speaks up for the Lerners because they are MOT, then you ought to realize that he's jumping on another tribal member in Loria. 

Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #157: November 14, 2012, 09:56:17 AM »
Short of that, maybe there is a best interest of baseball option, but I'm guessing Loria would litigate and I don't know how that comes out.


Finley sued Kuhn and lost.     Charles O Finley vs. Bowie Kuhn, 7th Circuit, 1978.

Offline PebbleBall

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #158: November 14, 2012, 10:21:03 AM »
This is a real embarrassment.  If Bud "The CHUD" Selig lets this happen he deserves to be horsewhipped with Loria.

I agree that it's an embarrassment, but Bud shouldn't interfere.  Although it would be Bud-like to heroically defend fans from the monster he created.


Offline Kevrock

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #160: November 14, 2012, 10:33:44 AM »
I agree that it's an embarrassment, but Bud shouldn't interfere.  Although it would be Bud-like to heroically defend fans from the monster he created.

It's more Bud like to not defend fans from the monster he created. He answers to owners and he acts like he answers to owners.

Offline lastobjective

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #161: November 14, 2012, 10:42:15 AM »
Wow, I go on a trip and this glorious clusterfreak occurs.

All I know that if I was a Marlins fan I'd be incredibly pissed off.

I wonder how this will play out.

Offline comish4lif

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #162: November 14, 2012, 11:14:45 AM »
So, here's some of the numbers. For 2013, the Marlins get more than $44M of salary relief. I used the contract numbers from COTS (now on the Blue Jays page) and the MLBTR arbitration estimate for Bonifacio at $2.5M.

As far as total burden, the Marlins traded $165,750,000 worth of contract obligations to the Jays.

Buerhle: $51,000,000 ($12,000,000; $19,000,000; $20,000,000)
Reyes: $92,000,000 ($10,000,000; $16,000,000; $22,000,000;  $22,000,000; $22,000,000)
Johnson: $13,750,000
Buck: $6,500,000
Bonifacio: $2,500,000

Offline Ray D

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #163: November 14, 2012, 11:20:28 AM »

As far as total burden, the Marlins traded $165,750,000 worth of contract obligations to the Jays.

Why are the Blue Jays suddenly in a position to take on such huge obligations?  They're not much of a draw.  How soon will they be dumping these players?

Offline mitlen

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #164: November 14, 2012, 11:23:07 AM »
Obama needs to send in the Marines. #FreeStanton

Send 'em an e-mail in care of General Allen.    Tell 'em it's from Jill.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #165: November 14, 2012, 11:25:59 AM »
Why are the Blue Jays suddenly in a position to take on such huge obligations?  They're not much of a draw.  How soon will they be dumping these players?

More revnue sharing plus they dumped Alex Rios and Vernon Wells

AA > All other GMs

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #166: November 14, 2012, 11:48:16 AM »
Loria is probably going to sell the team now after a year of raking in profits on a barebones payroll. 

Loria was responsible for stripping the Expos down to nothing and then selling them to MLB before they came to DC, right? 

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #167: November 14, 2012, 11:50:45 AM »
Why are the Blue Jays suddenly in a position to take on such huge obligations?  They're not much of a draw.  How soon will they be dumping these players?

Because the Canadian dollars is on par with the us dollar vs 1.5 to the us dollar a decade ago

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #168: November 14, 2012, 11:54:12 AM »
I agree that it's an embarrassment, but Bud shouldn't interfere.  Although it would be Bud-like to heroically defend fans from the monster he created.

Serious question - there's no way the city of Miami/Dade County/the suckers that paid for the aquarium in Little Havana are going to let this happen without causing a fuss, right?  I mean, this is a total slap in the face to anyone that bought into Loria and the Marlins doing anything other than squeezing MLB for every dime they can.

Offline lastobjective

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #169: November 14, 2012, 11:55:54 AM »
Loria was responsible for stripping the Expos down to nothing and then selling them to MLB before they came to DC, right? 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Loria

Looks like he didn't get the stadium he wanted and jumped ship. There's a little more to it but that's the gist of it. He then used the money he gained from the sale to buy the Marlins.

Fun fact: He lost out to Peter Angelos in his bid to buy the O's.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #170: November 14, 2012, 11:56:52 AM »


So, here's some of the numbers. For 2013, the Marlins get more than $44M of salary relief. I used the contract numbers from COTS (now on the Blue Jays page) and the MLBTR arbitration estimate for Bonifacio at $2.5M.

As far as total burden, the Marlins traded $165,750,000 worth of contract obligations to the Jays.

Buerhle: $51,000,000 ($12,000,000; $19,000,000; $20,000,000)
Reyes: $92,000,000 ($10,000,000; $16,000,000; $22,000,000;  $22,000,000; $22,000,000)
Johnson: $13,750,000
Buck: $6,500,000
Bonifacio: $2,500,000

Given how backloaded those contracts were and Loria's reputation, it should not have been surprising to any of those players that they were traded before the really big money came due.  I guess in a pure business sense and in the very short term, the Marlins did well - they got one year of very good perfromance out of both Buerhle and Reyes at relatively bargain rates. 

In the long term, of course, they screwed themselves.

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #171: November 14, 2012, 11:57:02 AM »
I really wish Loria had bought the Red Sux instead.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #172: November 14, 2012, 11:58:48 AM »
Serious question - there's no way the city of Miami/Dade County/the suckers that paid for the aquarium in Little Havana are going to let this happen without causing a fuss, right?  I mean, this is a total slap in the face to anyone that bought into Loria and the Marlins doing anything other than squeezing MLB for every dime they can.

I wonder if their bonds use the stadium as security- in which case default away

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #173: November 14, 2012, 12:03:26 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Loria

Looks like he didn't get the stadium he wanted and jumped ship. There's a little more to it but that's the gist of it. He then used the money he gained from the sale to buy the Marlins.

Fun fact: He lost out to Peter Angelos in his bid to buy the O's.


Just one example of his douchebaggery -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Expos

The Major League Baseball owners voted 30–0 to form a Delaware partnership, Expos Baseball, LP, to buy the Expos for US$120 million from Loria.[5] After both deals closed, Loria moved the entire Expos front office and on-field staff, including manager Jeff Torborg, to Miami — leaving the Expos without personnel, scouting reports, and office equipment, including the team's computers. Without a viable owner willing to operate the team in Montreal, it was widely thought that the sale of the Expos to MLB was the first step in the process of either moving the team or folding it altogether.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Marlins trade franchise to Blue Jays
« Reply #174: November 14, 2012, 12:07:46 PM »
Just one example of his douchebaggery -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Expos

The Major League Baseball owners voted 30–0 to form a Delaware partnership, Expos Baseball, LP, to buy the Expos for US$120 million from Loria.[5] After both deals closed, Loria moved the entire Expos front office and on-field staff, including manager Jeff Torborg, to Miami — leaving the Expos without personnel, scouting reports, and office equipment, including the team's computers. Without a viable owner willing to operate the team in Montreal, it was widely thought that the sale of the Expos to MLB was the first step in the process of either moving the team or folding it altogether.



That's makes him better in my book- if the expos had succeeded,  we wouldn't have a team