Poll

Who would you rather keep?

Adam LaRoche
68 (60.7%)
Michael Morse
44 (39.3%)

Total Members Voted: 112

Author Topic: Morse or LaRoche  (Read 22623 times)

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Online DPMOmaha

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #175: November 01, 2012, 02:23:44 PM »
I'd probably still take Bourn for a couple of years in the leadoff role, but if that mean's bumping Harper off CF, I don't think I'd do it.  Harp is turning into one of the best CF's in the game and brings so much more to the table that Bourn.  Harper's value at a corner isn't what it is in CF, IMO.

Offline lastobjective

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #176: November 01, 2012, 02:24:08 PM »
As a leadoff hitter, Werth is preferable to Bourn, Victorino, and DeJesus.

In what way? I REALLY like Werth as a leadoff hitter but I wonder what your reasoning is. I've seen articles suggesting the Nats sign Bourn as a leadoff hitter and I just have to  :smh:

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #177: November 01, 2012, 02:36:06 PM »
I've thought about that as well.  If the Nats go crazy and don't re-sign LaRoche AND trade Morse, then I can see Brown in LF and Moore at 1st.  I don't think that is a recipe for success, nor is it a recipe for disaster either.

I absolutely disagree . We will end up fighting for third place in the division with the Mets and MarlIns if we lose both. Brown and TMo are unproven. I like Moore but he has what less than 150 AB's? Brown and Perez have not shown they can hit. But to be fair I thought that Lombo needed to spend the year in Syracuse after 30 AB's in his September call up.

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #178: November 01, 2012, 02:42:16 PM »
In what way? I REALLY like Werth as a leadoff hitter but I wonder what your reasoning is. I've seen articles suggesting the Nats sign Bourn as a leadoff hitter and I just have to  :smh:

Werth has been a lead off hitter for all of four months of his career.  Bourn has been a leadoff hitter his ENTIRE career.  Bourn is considered to be more of the "prototypical" lead-off hitter.  He doesn't hit for much power, but has a quick bat and can get on base at a high percentage.  The perfect formula for a "prototypical" leadoff guy is to have a guy who sees a lot of pitches, has good speed on the basepaths so he can steal bases or leg out a hit, and gets on base any way possible.  This is the "ideal" lead off guy.

What we are now seeing though, and it is present in Werth, is a guy who sees lots of pitches, has above average but not elite speed, but also has decent power too.  Trout is probably the best leadoff hitter in the game.  His plate discipline is pretty good, and he is a very good bad ball hitter.  Instead of just taking tons of pitches, he also puts pitches in play at a good rate.  He has good power at the plate as well, and this goes to the idea of how often does the "leadoff" hitter actually lead an inning off.  Bourn is also on the wrong side of 30 and his tremendous speed is the biggest part of his game.  His stellar defense is due to him having blazing speed to get to lots of balls.  As he ages, he will start to slow up, and this will turn him into a much worse player.  Chone Figgins from LA to Seattle comes to mind as a leadoff type with good speed who degraded into a player who strikes out too much (Bourn already does this) and loses his spark on the bases.

I think Bourn will get paid by a team like Philly who has no one in the organization that could fill the role for years to come.  He will lead off and have maybe one or two good years out of a likely 5 year deal.  The Nats by that point should have Brian Goodwin up who is touted as being a superior player with less base stealing speed.

I don't think any outfielder not named Justin Upton should be pursued by the Nats this offseason as the internal candidates probably far outweigh the risk involved in any FA or unknown.

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #179: November 01, 2012, 02:44:18 PM »
WAY TOO MUCH WORDAGE

Dude, don't take this the wrong way but three sentences max.

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #180: November 01, 2012, 02:46:38 PM »
I absolutely disagree . We will end up fighting for third place in the division with the Mets and MarlIns if we lose both. Brown and TMo are unproven. I like Moore but he has what less than 150 AB's? Brown and Perez have not shown they can hit. But to be fair I thought that Lombo needed to spend the year in Syracuse after 30 AB's in his September call up.

I don't doubt we fight for third if both are gone.  I think the team can make do without Morse or LaRoche with Moore in the outfield.  I still think it's best to try and trade Morse this offseason and get something in return since next year the Nats will get nothing since they won't offer him a qualifying offer (he makes 7 this year and will definitely take 13+ next year).  Morse is awesome, but I think his production offensively will be made up by an emerging Harper and someone like Moore.  LaRoche is necessary for his power threat and lefty bat.

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #181: November 01, 2012, 02:47:05 PM »
Dude, don't take this the wrong way but three sentences max.

Wahh, just don't read it, lol.

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #182: November 01, 2012, 02:49:17 PM »
Wahh, just don't read it, lol.

You make good points, I should have said that earlier, it's just difficult to keep track of what you're saying when I start paragraph four. 

Online zimm_da_kid

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #183: November 01, 2012, 02:56:49 PM »
Werth has been a lead off hitter for all of four months of his career.  Bourn has been a leadoff hitter his ENTIRE career.  Bourn is considered to be more of the "prototypical" lead-off hitter.  He doesn't hit for much power, but has a quick bat and can get on base at a high percentage.  The perfect formula for a "prototypical" leadoff guy is to have a guy who sees a lot of pitches, has good speed on the basepaths so he can steal bases or leg out a hit, and gets on base any way possible.  This is the "ideal" lead off guy.

Werth gets on base at such a better rate that it negates bourn's basestealing.  You could also make a case that Werth is the better baserunner of the two.  Werth found his mojo in the leadoff spot and I don't want to mess with that.  I'd go with a bernie/moore combo in left until goodwin is ready.  If it turns out that moore is a power hitting god, then keep him and we have a great trade piece in goodwin.

RF werth
2B lombo (until rendon is ready)
3B Zimm
CF Harper
1B beast
SS desi
LF Moore/Bernie (until goodwin is ready)
C Ramos

looks solid to me.

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #184: November 01, 2012, 02:58:32 PM »
You make good points, I should have said that earlier, it's just difficult to keep track of what you're saying when I start paragraph four.

It's cool man, no worries here.


Also, everyone's favorite stay at home dad from Boston posted this on ESPN:

Quote from: ESPN Insider garbage
3. Washington Nationals trade 1B/OF/DH Michael Morse to the Toronto Blue Jays for RHP Kyle Drabek and IF Mike McCoy.

As Dan Szymborski noted in his Tuesday article on the Nationals, the team has very few holes, so consider this move addition by subtraction. Over the past three years, just five qualified position players have been worse defensively than Morse, per UZR. And with the Nationals intent on re-signing Adam LaRoche, that leaves Morse in left field, where he is completely and utterly exposed. Chad Tracy and Tyler Moore were just as effective offensively last year as Morse was, and they aren't going to kill the Nats in the pasture the way that Morse will.

In left field, Morse's bat isn't good enough to make up for his awful defense. Moving him to Toronto would permit to the Blue Jays to finally bid adieu to Adam Lind, and Morse and Edwin Encarnacion could take turns at first base and designated hitter. In return for Morse, Washington gets a lottery ticket in Drabek, and a very solid utility player in McCoy. McCoy is a demon on the basepaths and can field every position outside of pitcher and catcher with aplomb.

I don't hate this move actually.  Drabek has the stuff, but could never harness it.  He is injured with TJ but I think he could figure it out in AAA.  The utility guy doesn't make much sense when Lombo is available though.  I think another prospect would be good in return.

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #185: November 01, 2012, 03:00:00 PM »
RF werth
2B lombo (until rendon is ready) :hang:
3B Zimm
CF Harper
1B beast
SS desi
LF Moore/Bernie (until goodwin is ready)
C Ramos

looks solid to me.

That's a pretty weak line-up that's missing a lot of power with Espinosa and LaRoche gone and a lineup that's going to strikeout a ton.  Moore and Bernagriffey are really great off the bench but I'm not sure platooning them is a good idea for a competing team. 

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #186: November 01, 2012, 03:01:52 PM »
I don't hate this move actually.  Drabek has the stuff, but could never harness it.  He is injured with TJ but I think he could figure it out in AAA.  The utility guy doesn't make much sense when Lombo is available though.  I think another prospect would be good in return.

Taking on another medical case is moving backwards.

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #187: November 01, 2012, 03:01:58 PM »
I don't hate this move actually.  Drabek has the stuff, but could never harness it.  He is injured with TJ but I think he could figure it out in AAA.  The utility guy doesn't make much sense when Lombo is available though.  I think another prospect would be good in return.

lol what a garbage trade.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #188: November 01, 2012, 03:03:08 PM »
Mattionals - I don't think what you outline would be the worst thing in the world - the team did win 98 games last year - but I do think that you are putting a lot of faith in LaRoche to stay healthy and productive and in Goodwin becoming a starting-caliber player better than Bourn or other outfielders out there this offseason. 

If you trade Morse and start Moore, to me, that leaves you thin on the bench.  Werth is older and LaRoche is older and one is likely to miss a chunk of games next year.  I'd like to have Moore ready to step in when that happens.

Online zimm_da_kid

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #189: November 01, 2012, 03:04:20 PM »
That's a pretty weak line-up that's missing a lot of power with Espinosa and LaRoche gone and a lineup that's going to strikeout a ton.  Moore and Bernagriffey are really great off the bench but I'm not sure platooning them is a good idea for a competing team. 

there's no way to stop the strike out problem without replacing the majority of our lineup

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #190: November 01, 2012, 03:05:19 PM »
If you trade Morse and start Moore, to me, that leaves you thin on the bench.

Right, a bench of Bernagriffey, Moore, Lombo, Brown, Tracy, and Ramos/Suzuki is pretty good.  Penciling any of those guys in as starters is a disaster.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #191: November 01, 2012, 03:07:13 PM »
there's no way to stop the strike out problem without replacing the majority of our lineup

Yeah but replacing Espinosa is a good step in that direction.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #192: November 01, 2012, 03:09:51 PM »
We have a lineup full of guys that will hit 20+ homers with a full season.  Most players like that will tend to strike out a lot. 

Offline houston-nat

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #193: November 01, 2012, 03:17:02 PM »
In what way? I REALLY like Werth as a leadoff hitter but I wonder what your reasoning is. I've seen articles suggesting the Nats sign Bourn as a leadoff hitter and I just have to  :smh:

Quite a few things. I wrote an article (h/t JCA) and pitched it to Fangraphs but they never replied...
- Werth sees a ton of pitches. He didn't qualify for the batting title this year but if he had, he'd be top-5 (MLB) for pitches per plate appearance. His extremely good eye makes pitchers work from the very start. The other top P/PA guys are big sluggers like Jose Bautista and Mark Reynolds; Werth is the only "athletic" type to make that leaderboard.
- Werth gets on base. Honestly, with Harper and Zimmerman behind you, you don't need to steal that much cuz they're gonna hit doubles and homers. (At age 19, Bryce Harper's ISO of .206 compares to CarGo, Holliday, and Posey.)

Check it: .......2012OBP....CareerOBP
Jayson Werth.. .387 ...... .362
Michael Bourn.. .348 ...... .339

Really the only advantage Bourn has is steals. He's turning 30, and while I don't know how the steal tool is aging, the truth is that if you were told there was a crazy-great defensive CF who hits .270 and gets tons of steals, but doesn't hit as much as our outfielders, doesn't get on base as much, and has vastly less power, well, you'd think he'd make us a great 4th OF and pinch-runner/defensive sub. Right?

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #194: November 01, 2012, 03:21:08 PM »
I don't think cutting Espinosa loose is a good idea.  Sure he is unprecedented in the K totals, but he always has been.  He has above average power and if he can make the adjustments, he will be a great player.  He is the one type of player you hold onto because he has above average speed, elite defense, and above average power at a position where power is premium.  Heyward had TONS of holes in his swing during his second year.  He made the adjustments and had a good season just a few ticks below batting .270, knocking in 80+ RBI, scoring 90+ runs and hitting 27 Homers.  He did that all the while playing GG caliber defense.  Espinosa could be that guy next year.

Also I looked into the proposed Drabek trade a little more and I would think Drabek is the "pot-sweetener" if he gets healthy and figures it out (WHIP is way way way high).  He should definitely not be the centerpiece and Morse is worth more than that.

Offline raleighnat

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #195: November 01, 2012, 03:54:42 PM »
I may be thinking of this to simply.  The team won 98 games last year.  Bryce was good in center and having his offense in that position is a major boost.  I think Werth is an ideal lead off hitter.  I like a lead off hitter with a bit of pop that can run the bases (steals are a bit over rated).  We know what Morse can do when healthy with the bat.  La Roche was our MVP and even if he reverts to norm he's still a solid middle order of the line up bat that gives us some lefty balance.  We have lots of depth with Moore, Bernie and Lombo in case anyone goes down.  Why go spend tons of change on a center fielder to hit lead off - I don't see the need?  May improve the D, but I just don't think it would improve it enough to replace the lost hitting.  Replacing Morse or LaRoche with a slap hitting lead off bat seems like a mistake - especially if it involves a big contract.  Give LaRoche 3 years.  Morse plays for his free agent year.  You'll have time to see if Goodwin can be the man and address next year when Morse departs.

I would resign La Roche, make a make push to really upgrade Jackson's spot in the rotation, and tweak the pen.  A rotation of say Stras, Gio, Znn, Lohse, and Detwiler...wow.  A rotation like that makes another post season appearance about as much a lock as one could hope for.  If it ain't broke...

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #196: November 01, 2012, 04:13:04 PM »
I may be thinking of this to simply.  The team won 98 games last year.  Bryce was good in center and having his offense in that position is a major boost.  I think Werth is an ideal lead off hitter.  I like a lead off hitter with a bit of pop that can run the bases (steals are a bit over rated).  We know what Morse can do when healthy with the bat.  La Roche was our MVP and even if he reverts to norm he's still a solid middle order of the line up bat that gives us some lefty balance.  We have lots of depth with Moore, Bernie and Lombo in case anyone goes down.  Why go spend tons of change on a center fielder to hit lead off - I don't see the need?  May improve the D, but I just don't think it would improve it enough to replace the lost hitting.  Replacing Morse or LaRoche with a slap hitting lead off bat seems like a mistake - especially if it involves a big contract.  Give LaRoche 3 years.  Morse plays for his free agent year.  You'll have time to see if Goodwin can be the man and address next year when Morse departs.

I would resign La Roche, make a make push to really upgrade Jackson's spot in the rotation, and tweak the pen.  A rotation of say Stras, Gio, Znn, Lohse, and Detwiler...wow.  A rotation like that makes another post season appearance about as much a lock as one could hope for.  If it ain't broke...

I am totally on this boat with you ...

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #197: November 01, 2012, 04:16:31 PM »
Quote
The perfect formula for a "prototypical" leadoff guy is to have a guy who sees a lot of pitches, has good speed on the basepaths so he can steal bases or leg out a hit, and gets on base any way possible.  This is the "ideal" lead off guy.

Ricky Henderson and Tim Raines are the protypical leadoff hitters.  An OBP of > .350 should be a target, seeing a ton of pitches is good, and power is still important, just less so than at 2-3-4 in the order.  Werth right now may be ideal, especially if we bring back ALR or keep at least one of Moore/ Morse.

Also, this is a Morse / Laroche thread, so I'll skip discussion of the rest of the order ideas. 


Offline lastobjective

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #198: November 01, 2012, 04:19:25 PM »
I would resign La Roche, make a make push to really upgrade Jackson's spot in the rotation, and tweak the pen.  A rotation of say Stras, Gio, Znn, Lohse, and Detwiler...wow.  A rotation like that makes another post season appearance about as much a lock as one could hope for.  If it ain't broke...
Agreed. Why mess with a good thing? Just make sure to have good backup plans- which in my mind just translates to a good bench and good AAA replacements in case of (inevitable) injury. LaRoche was a big part of our 98 wins, don't dump him, Morse or anyone else so easily.


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Morse or LaRoche
« Reply #199: November 01, 2012, 04:42:06 PM »
I'd kind of be interested in Shin-Soo Choo if we can't bring ALR back.  the Indians may want to cash out if he is not going to re-sign for after next year.  He's a Boras client, and MLBTR speculates he is going to get $7.9MM in arbitration. 

Picking up Choo would allow you to move Harper out of #2.  Choo is a pretty good base runner, and his OBP/ SLG is drool-worthy (.373 / .441 in 2012, .381 / .465 career).  He had an awful year per UZR this year, but before that, he had been near average (5+/- runs).  Played 155 game last year, so the injury from 2011 seems past.

It'd take prospects, most likely, to get him, but you could bring him in for  1 or 2 years, then move him out of right (or left) once we have a better option.