Author Topic: I just have one question about last night  (Read 976 times)

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Offline The Chief

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I just have one question about last night
« Topic Start: October 13, 2012, 02:04:58 PM »
Did the umps screw us?

Yeah I know, the whole team lost, and I am absolutely not disputing that, but from my seat in 228 I obviously couldn't tell close ball/strike calls, and crowds naturally blame the umps for a lot, so I just want some perspectives from those who watch on TV.  Should any of those five 2-strike calls been strike 3?

Also, I'm here from the future to say that PANatsFan sucks a wet noodle.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #1: October 13, 2012, 02:05:28 PM »
No. They were all outside, sadly.

You'd have more of a case on some of the non-check swing calls. But even they looked correctly called.

However some of the first pitch sliders Drew threw early in the ninth that were called balls were strikes. Brenley blamed Suzuki for how he caught them... Not sure what to think there. As for the outside pitches, though, they were all correctly called as balls.

:(

Offline santanaf

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #2: October 13, 2012, 02:10:29 PM »
I think it depends on what you think the umps should be doing. If they are there to call accurate balls and strikes, and any pitch that catches the edge of the zone is a strike, they didn't do a horrible job.

But if you expect an ump to establish "their" zone and stick with it, give a more lenient zone and calls to the better team and more experienced pitchers/batters (which is all totally bullcrap), then yes, they seriously screwed us.

The ump established a zone early on the game that was giving consistent strikes to outside pitches, and calling inside stuff that were strikes, balls. But in Gio's final inning, that suddenly changed and went back to a normal zone. The rest of the game then stuck that way.

If Kurt feels like they were getting outside calls from earlier, he keeps setting up outside to get the call, but it never comes.

I don't think we got screwed, but there could be a case to make. Just be sure to look beyond just Drew's 9th.

Offline PebbleBall

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #3: October 13, 2012, 02:11:02 PM »
Just said it in the vent thread, but the strike zone seemed to perfectly match the pitch tracker.  Storen had a few pitches that were agonizingly close, a couple sliders on the edge in particular but the tracker showed them just out.  There was one pitch, the only one I can think of, that was in the zone and called a ball, I think it was in the Beltran at bat.  But IIRC it had heavy sink so it wasn't indefensible.

Offline PebbleBall

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #4: October 13, 2012, 02:16:52 PM »
However some of the first pitch sliders Drew threw early in the ninth that were called balls were strikes. Brenley blamed Suzuki for how he caught them... Not sure what to think there. As for the outside pitches, though, they were all correctly called as balls.


This is what I remember, turns out it was the very first pitch of the inning, a fastball to Beltran.  So, yeah.


Offline Slateman

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #5: October 13, 2012, 02:21:26 PM »
No more so than the ump screwed Lance Lynn last night on the 11th pitch of the Werth at bat.

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #6: October 13, 2012, 02:23:16 PM »
No more so than the ump screwed Lance Lynn last night on the 11th pitch of the Werth at bat.

well it didn't help that yadier dropped the ball on that pitch.  You're rarely going to get a close pitch called a strike when the ball is dropped.

Offline spidernat

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #7: October 13, 2012, 02:26:09 PM »

but from my seat in 228

I was in 229.  :shock:

Offline The Chief

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Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #9: October 13, 2012, 04:32:03 PM »
I think it depends on what you think the umps should be doing. If they are there to call accurate balls and strikes, and any pitch that catches the edge of the zone is a strike, they didn't do a horrible job.

But if you expect an ump to establish "their" zone and stick with it, give a more lenient zone and calls to the better team and more experienced pitchers/batters (which is all totally bullcrap), then yes, they seriously screwed us.

The ump established a zone early on the game that was giving consistent strikes to outside pitches, and calling inside stuff that were strikes, balls. But in Gio's final inning, that suddenly changed and went back to a normal zone. The rest of the game then stuck that way.

If Kurt feels like they were getting outside calls from earlier, he keeps setting up outside to get the call, but it never comes.

I don't think we got screwed, but there could be a case to make. Just be sure to look beyond just Drew's 9th.

Kurt should have adjusted once he saw that by the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings, none of those pitches were being called strikes any more.  Repeatedly calling for the low-and-away pitch in the 9th was pure insanity.

The home plate ump might have changed the strike zone, but at least once he did, he didn't keep going back and forth with it like Joe West or something.  Hard to blame this on the umps.

Offline imref

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #10: October 13, 2012, 04:50:14 PM »
i have another question - has Davey explained why he went with Jackson instead of Mattheus in the 7th?

Offline Dave B

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #11: October 13, 2012, 04:53:12 PM »
i have another question - has Davey explained why he went with Jackson instead of Mattheus in the 7th?

i was a little puzzled too. my first thought was "doesnt this guy take a little while to get himself going"

Offline welch

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #12: October 13, 2012, 05:06:48 PM »
- Many balls called that were right at the borderline. Touching the edge of the pitch track strike zone or so close. inside or outside, that they could have been strikes
- Several balls that pitch track saw as crossing the plate but dropping low as Suzuki caught them. In fact, the announcers pointed to a few iin the last inning where "Suzuki didn't help his pitcher...caught the ball low, but it was a strike. Should have "framed the pitch better"
- Very tight strike zone

My thought: same strike zone, but too often the Nats swung at the pitch as it dropped into the dirt. Espi does that too often...last year and this year. Accounts for many of his league-leading K's.

Offline Fan037

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #13: October 13, 2012, 05:56:52 PM »
i have another question - has Davey explained why he went with Jackson instead of Mattheus in the 7th?

I wonder why also.  Jackson wasn't sharp when he started and wasn't sharp when he came out of the bullpen.  Bringing him in from the bullpen, in my opinion, was the only thing DJ did wrong.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #14: October 13, 2012, 06:01:23 PM »
i was a little puzzled too. my first thought was "doesnt this guy take a little while to get himself going"

Zimmermann needed 50 warmup pitches

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #15: October 13, 2012, 06:27:21 PM »
The immediate post game all Davey said was that he thought Jackson was his best option to bridge to Clippard and Storen against that line up and that he more or less got out of the inning a position for those two to pick it up. 

There was a bit of Mattheus bashing this series on the board.  Maybe we were thinking the same as Davey.

Offline WerthHisWeight

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #16: October 13, 2012, 06:59:35 PM »
Agree with others.  The strike zone was consistent when it counted.  Suzu might have done a better sell job, but not on the at bats that really hurt - the two walks.  Those really were walks.

Offline PC

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #17: October 13, 2012, 07:42:13 PM »
You know, it occurred to me to look at the optics of the situation.  It's the deciding game in a playoff series, the 9th inning, the home team is leading,  the stadium is packed, the fans are crazed...and still, the Nationals could not get a call.  I don't consider it good umpiring.  I think it's odd.

Some of Storen's ball calls were strikes, so clearly he wasn't perfect.  Some of the ball calls were certainly close enough to be, legitimately, called strikes.  Looking at it, you'd think the team with the best record in baseball playing the second wild card team would get some deference.  It's odd that they got none.  I wonder if a more "established" winning team would have been treated the same.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #18: October 13, 2012, 07:51:58 PM »
The immediate post game all Davey said was that he thought Jackson was his best option to bridge to Clippard and Storen against that line up and that he more or less got out of the inning a position for those two to pick it up. 

There was a bit of Mattheus bashing this series on the board.  Maybe we were thinking the same as Davey.

Davey should have just stuck with his relievers there.  If Mattheus screws up, it's Rizzo's fault.  Now everyone's going to rightfully second-guess the decision to bring in the Nats' worst SP down the stretch in the middle of a close game.

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #19: October 13, 2012, 08:09:12 PM »
- Several balls that pitch track saw as crossing the plate but dropping low as Suzuki caught them. In fact, the announcers pointed to a few iin the last inning where "Suzuki didn't help his pitcher...caught the ball low, but it was a strike. Should have "framed the pitch better"

I just rewatched the yadier molina at bat and there were two sliders were Suz's glove was on the ground after the pitch.  He should know how to frame it.

Offline spidernat

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #20: October 13, 2012, 08:35:06 PM »
Looking at it, you'd think the team with the best record in baseball playing the second wild card team would get some deference.  It's odd that they got none.  I wonder if a more "established" winning team would have been treated the same.

So you don't care which team is better. You just want the Nats to be more fortunate. Some competitor you must be.


But WTF! I DVR'd the replay of the game on MLB Network and right before Espinosa's at bat in the bottom of the 8th they went away to show the freaking yankees stretching before tonight's game. It ended up preempting the rest of the game.  :bang:

Offline PC

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #21: October 13, 2012, 08:51:01 PM »
So you don't care which team is better. You just want the Nats to be more fortunate. Some competitor you must be.

I want the Nationals to be treated like every other similarly situated team, as I described in the post and I don't believe they were.

Offline imref

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #22: October 13, 2012, 11:09:10 PM »
Zuck on Davey's bullpen use:

Quote
2. DAVEY JOHNSON'S BULLPEN USE
Johnson spent all week talking about how he wasn't going to change anything about the way he managed his team in the postseason, insisting the manner -- and the players -- that produced 98 wins in the regular season could also win in October.

But in the Nationals' final two games of the year, the veteran skipper contradicted himself with his bullpen usage, staying away from several relievers who helped him get to this point and instead turning to two struggling starters in unfamiliar roles.

The gamble worked in Game 4 with Jordan Zimmermann striking out the side. It did not work in Game 5, with Edwin Jackson laboring through the seventh inning and giving up a run that put the Cardinals in better position to mount their final rally.

"I just felt like Jackson was the best choice I had to get through that part of that lineup," Johnson said. "He did the job for me. He gave up a run, but he did what we needed to, to get to the people we needed to get to."

The most curious absence from Game 5 might well have been Ryan Mattheus, the right-hander who was so effective all season escaping jams and who authored the greatest two-pitch relief appearance in history in Game 1. Mattheus never did warm up last night.

Some will also question the fact Johnson used Storen in the 8-0 Game 3 blowout, in the process forcing the young right-hander to pitch on three consecutive days. Storen wound up throwing 70 pitches in three days. He had actually been used back-to-back-to-back in September, so this wasn't a first-time challenge. Though in that previous instance (Sept. 10-12) he threw a total of only 22 pitches.

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #23: October 13, 2012, 11:31:27 PM »
Did the umps screw us?

Yeah I know, the whole team lost, and I am absolutely not disputing that, but from my seat in 228 I obviously couldn't tell close ball/strike calls, and crowds naturally blame the umps for a lot, so I just want some perspectives from those who watch on TV.  Should any of those five 2-strike calls been strike 3?

Chief.  Im glad you had the courage to ask.  I was thinking the same thing but many times if I post the question; I feel Im chastised for it.

I asked my cousin today who said he viewed the 9th inning on tivo this morning.  He said watching the pitch zone, most of the calls were correct.


Offline Coladar

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Re: I just have one question about last night
« Reply #24: October 14, 2012, 12:24:35 AM »
Zuck on Davey's bullpen use:


Huh? Mattheus never warmed up? Am I dreaming or did I not see him listed on the bullpen screen as warming up early, I think while Gio was still in the game? Maybe it was Thursday, but I am damn sure I saw his name last night.