Author Topic: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread  (Read 93709 times)

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Online Slateman

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2800: December 08, 2012, 01:52:46 PM »
A more accurate description of Espinosa's offensive value would be:
Poor average, average OBP, great pop for his position, a lot of strikeouts, and excellent defense at both middle infield positions. If you don't see how that's worth 3+ wins than you are grossly overestimating the offensive capabilities of middle infielders around the league.

Espinosa is much better than pre 2012 Desmond both with his glove and bat. Desmond failed at everything except baserunning. The only thing Espi is truly bad at is making contact.

I see how the defense is worth 2+ wins and the bat is worth 1+ or so.

Let's put it this way: If Rendon can play average defense at second and his bat lives up to the hype, who starts?

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2801: December 08, 2012, 01:53:39 PM »
Vega,

Whatever works for you, bud.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2802: December 08, 2012, 01:58:33 PM »
I see how the defense is worth 2+ wins and the bat is worth 1+ or so.

Let's put it this way: If Rendon can play average defense at second and his bat lives up to the hype, who starts?

Assuming he's healthy I'd take Rendon as excellent offense is more valuable than excellent defense (unless your name is Bourn or Gutierrez) especially at a middle infield position.

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2803: December 08, 2012, 02:22:52 PM »
I see how the defense is worth 2+ wins and the bat is worth 1+ or so.

Let's put it this way: If Rendon can play average defense at second and his bat lives up to the hype, who starts?

well he would be up in june at the earliest.  Assuming that I would say that if Espi is still under performing that Rendon would deserve a shot.

Offline Smithian

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2804: December 08, 2012, 02:23:48 PM »
Stats aren't everything. They're a big part, but they're not everything.

Online Slateman

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2805: December 08, 2012, 02:31:36 PM »
well he would be up in june at the earliest.  Assuming that I would say that if Espi is still under performing that Rendon would deserve a shot.

And I'm not suggesting this trade needs to be made now. It can be re-visited come the deadline when the Dbacks aren't in the hunt.

Online Slateman

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2806: December 08, 2012, 04:19:16 PM »
Random thought: What about Kinsler? Not so sure the Rangers would be willing to deal him, but if it meant getting Justin Upton, they could be interested.

Perhaps, Espinosa and Hood for Kinsler. The Rangers flip Espinosa, Hood, Ott, and another for Justin Upton. Would that work?

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2807: December 08, 2012, 04:46:17 PM »
Random thought: What about Kinsler? Not so sure the Rangers would be willing to deal him, but if it meant getting Justin Upton, they could be interested.

Perhaps, Espinosa and Hood for Kinsler. The Rangers flip Espinosa, Hood, Ott, and another for Justin Upton. Would that work?

I wouldn't swap Espinosa for Kinsler given the age disparity. Would Andrus or Profar be able to man 2B for the Rangers?

Online Slateman

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2808: December 08, 2012, 05:10:14 PM »
I wouldn't swap Espinosa for Kinsler given the age disparity. Would Andrus or Profar be able to man 2B for the Rangers?

Profar has played some in the majors.

I didn't realize Kinsler was 30

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2809: December 08, 2012, 05:32:36 PM »
I didn't realize Kinsler was 30

If he was a few years younger I would do it in a heartbeat. Kinsler's a beast despite his down year.

EDIT: Actually if Espinosa could learn to not strikeout (lol) they'd be very similar players.

Offline TylerDC

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2810: December 08, 2012, 05:48:29 PM »
Espinosa for Profar plz

Offline Kevrock

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Online Slateman

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2812: December 08, 2012, 05:52:06 PM »
Espinosa for Profar plz
Rangers wouldn't do that for Justin Upton.

Offline BrandonK

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2813: December 08, 2012, 06:46:50 PM »
Like the Bauer suggestion. Suggested trade was Bauer for A. Cabrera.


Maybe a three team deal, with Morse & Bauer involved? Really don't see the FO moving Danny

Online Mr Clean

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2814: December 08, 2012, 06:58:05 PM »
Two questions: Do the D-Backs actually want to trade Bauer?  Is he injured?

Offline BrandonK

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2815: December 08, 2012, 07:00:14 PM »
Two questions: Do the D-Backs actually want to trade Bauer?  Is he injured?

They do want to trade him. No, he's not injured, they just dislike his attitude, long toss program, and don't trust his command

Online Mr Clean

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2816: December 08, 2012, 07:07:22 PM »
They do want to trade him. No, he's not injured, they just dislike his attitude, long toss program, and don't trust his command
He would be a tremendous pickup.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2817: December 08, 2012, 07:20:44 PM »
There are no plans to move Anthony Rendon to 2B right now.

And consider me one of those who wants to give Espinosa a chance to pull a Desmond and make good on his potential.

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2818: December 08, 2012, 07:24:27 PM »
They do want to trade him. No, he's not injured, they just dislike his attitude, long toss program, and don't trust his command

I don't believe his attitude is bad, he is just very stubborn.  He knows the science behind pitching better than anyone else and I trust him.

Offline BrandonK

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2819: December 08, 2012, 07:36:28 PM »
I don't believe his attitude is bad, he is just very stubborn.  He knows the science behind pitching better than anyone else and I trust him.

FO does like to tinker with deliveries too... Det went through one, as did E-Jax this year. Not sure how they feel about the long toss (also, not sure why that's such a big issue. Just plain wear-n-tear?)

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2820: December 08, 2012, 07:39:53 PM »
FO does like to tinker with deliveries too... Det went through one, as did E-Jax this year.

I would hope that after they messed up Det they would have learned their lesson.  Let young pitchers go with what works.

Online Slateman

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2821: December 08, 2012, 07:47:39 PM »
There are no plans to move Anthony Rendon to 2B right now.

And consider me one of those who wants to give Espinosa a chance to pull a Desmond and make good on his potential.

There were no plans to move Moore to LF either.

Offline Kevrock

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2822: December 08, 2012, 07:56:21 PM »
I don't believe his attitude is bad, he is just very stubborn.  He knows the science behind pitching better than anyone else and I trust him.

Better than ANYONE else?

Keep in mind, pitching is an inexact science.

I do like Bauer, doe.

Offline comish4lif

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2823: December 08, 2012, 08:00:48 PM »
I would hope that after they messed up Det they would have learned their lesson.  Let young pitchers go with what works.
I'm sure that teams think that they know what they are doing... And they probably do...

But I would love to see that before/after stats of all the pitchers whose deliveries that hey "fix" and how many get better and how man get worse...

Offline welch

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2824: December 09, 2012, 01:51:05 AM »
Do we have a good idea of what numbers are statusticakky significant in comparing OPS or WAR? Do either make proper allowance for K's? Boswell inisted that Espi was he victim of bad luck in 2011; as soon as his BABIP return to normal range, and "all" hitters make that normal reang -- about .300 or a but more -- then Espi would rocket.

His BABIP was about .297 by the end of 2011. Was about .320 last year. He struck out about 200 times, proving that your BA on ball in play doesn't help much if you put the fail to put the ball in plave 200 times.

Yes, give ESpi half the season to become a useful hitting. After that, we remind ourselves of the post that said Espin's only hitting weakness is that he can't make contact. As Ted Williams taught in 1969, "First, you have to hit the [maternal fornicating] ball."