Author Topic: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread  (Read 90119 times)

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Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2475: December 02, 2012, 09:20:45 PM »
HAHAHAHA no. Add in a middle infielder and something else.

Let's just sign Greinke then. Regardless of whether or not you want Espi or Lombo at second you can't deny the flexibility of keeping both. A strong bench is important.

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2476: December 02, 2012, 09:22:04 PM »
Yeah. I'd prefer Greinke since it's only a signing rather than losing a player or two.

Online Mattionals

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2477: December 02, 2012, 09:24:23 PM »
Let's just sign Greinke then. Regardless of whether or not you want Espi or Lombo at second you can't deny the flexibility of keeping both. A strong bench is important.

Unless we were able to land Hellickson with a package of Morse, Lombo and a prospect like Skole, I think a trade with the Rays doesn't match up for a starter.

Morse could very well be likened to grab a reliever though.  I like Noble's thought though.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  The bench was one of the many reasons that the Nats made the playoffs.  Spend big money on Greinke and then punch Angelos in the mouth and ask for 120 Mil in TV revenue.  More money to pay Stras, JZimm and Harper in the future.

Offline Mr Clean

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2478: December 02, 2012, 09:26:02 PM »
Kilgore now speculating Espinosa and Morse for Shields.

Offline Rasta

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2479: December 02, 2012, 09:30:04 PM »
Ladson tweeting we could be in on Shields as well. 

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2480: December 02, 2012, 09:30:42 PM »
Kilgore now speculating Espinosa and Morse for Shields.

I don't like it. I feel we would be selling too low on Espi. And as much as I like Shields you'd be trading for a good but not great aging pitcher with limited team control by weakening second base (in my opinion) and most definitely weakening the bench. Like Mattionals said if we were looking at Hellickson or Moore it would be different but we're not.

I don't necessarily hate the deal and think we would be fine. I just think there are better options available.

Offline tomterp

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2481: December 02, 2012, 09:31:05 PM »
Ladson tweeting we could be in on Shields as well.

Not only Shields, but Shields as well?   

Offline houston-nat

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2482: December 02, 2012, 09:34:04 PM »
I'd definitely assumed Morse would bring back a LH reliever to fill the Burnett/Gonzalez spot, and that the 5th starter would come from free agency.

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2483: December 02, 2012, 09:34:20 PM »
Kilgore also saying Rizz likes Espy too much so it's probably just dead rumors.  Maybe they heighten the "chatter" on a trade for a starter, and swoop in for a big splash like Greinke and then trade Morse for a reliever.  Then sign LaRoche to 3 years after breaking down.

Offline Vega

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2484: December 02, 2012, 09:34:37 PM »
Greinke would require a very large financial investment over a long period of time that could interfere with signing Strasburg, J-Zimm, Desmond, Harper, and possibly Det and Ramos long term, whereas Shields is just a two year commitment.

Offline Rasta

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2485: December 02, 2012, 09:34:49 PM »
Sorry Tom.  Should have said Ladson also tweeting we could be in on Sields.

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2486: December 02, 2012, 09:37:07 PM »
On an aside here, how crazy must it be to be Rizzo right now?  Three years ago no free agent in there right mind would want to come play in DC.  Two years ago he had to vastly overpay to get Werth.  Last year was interesting with Jackson.  Now after all the winning, I don't think he has to worry about a budget much or trying to "lure" players to play for the Nats.

Offline Jordanz Meatballz

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2487: December 02, 2012, 09:37:19 PM »
Kilgore:

Quote
About the Nats dealing Espinosa: Mike Rizzo likes him so much it's probably a dead issue. But good meetings chatter, anyway.

Online Slateman

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2488: December 02, 2012, 09:39:01 PM »
I really don't want to lose Morse :(

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2489: December 02, 2012, 09:42:35 PM »
I really don't want to lose Morse :(


Me either.  How many guys can hit 2 grand slams.  One with an imaginary bar!

http://www.natsenquirer.com/2012/09/video-michael-morse-hits-two-grand-slams-in-one-ab-one-without-a-bat.html

Offline Jordanz Meatballz

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2490: December 02, 2012, 09:44:11 PM »
We had an expensive minor league pitcher last year, why not have an All-Star caliber fourth outfielder? Keep the offense intact.

An Morse is a hell of a bench bat in the late innings if we need an extra-base hit from a right-hander. I'm salivating.

Offline tomterp

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2491: December 02, 2012, 09:46:34 PM »
Me either.  How many guys can hit 2 grand slams. 


Hammer says "Me, for one".


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2492: December 02, 2012, 09:47:50 PM »
Kilgore and Joel Sherman are copycats.

My guess would be the Rays would want Espinosa much more than Lombo because Espinosa can play SS (and play it well, I think) and has power and speed, and they are roughly the same in OBP.  They would prefer not to lock Zobrist into SS.  After all, they've not played him there until they were a bit desperate last year.  They aren't shy about high K guys, either.  The only real question is whether they sit tight and wait for Hak Ju Lee, get by with Ryan Roberts at 2d for a year, and play Zobrist at SS.  I think the Elliot Johnson / Sean Rodriguez era is over.  Morse is a nice rent a bat for a year for them, but Espinosa would be the long term piece. 

As for the Nats, moving Espinosa gives you a more than adequate solution in Lombo at 2d for a year, with the possibility that Rendon or maybe Kobernus or Renda takes over eventually.  Moore / Tracy with Marrero in AAA gives us plenty of coverage for 1st if LaRoche isn't re-signed.  Trading Morse and Espinosa does not lock Rendon into 2d either, long term, if RZ has to be moved off 3d.   There are back up infielders that can be brought in if we are concerned about depth.

Shields has been a staff leader for a playoff-caliber team for the past 5 seasons.  This isn't some 5th starter.  It leaves plenty of flexibility for 2015 and probably makes extension of JZ and Strasburg easier than if Grienke is signed.  Greinke is getting at least 6 years and over $100MM, and has less big game experience. 

Online Mattionals

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2493: December 02, 2012, 09:49:38 PM »
Greinke would require a very large financial investment over a long period of time that could interfere with signing Strasburg, J-Zimm, Desmond, Harper, and possibly Det and Ramos long term, whereas Shields is just a two year commitment.

Sorry, I'm not buying the "we won't have enough cash later on" card.  Lerners want to win.  Pony up the money.  If I measure up my maths right (yes maths), I think that even with Greinke the Nats would only top out in the 150 Mil range at the height of everyone's deals.  Sure that is a huge jump from years prior, but the team is winning with good and elite young talent.  In order to keep young talent, you need to spend.

Suck it up and spend, lol.

Online Mattionals

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2494: December 02, 2012, 09:56:23 PM »
Kilgore and Joel Sherman are copycats.

My guess would be the Rays would want Espinosa much more than Lombo because Espinosa can play SS (and play it well, I think) and has power and speed, and they are roughly the same in OBP.  They would prefer not to lock Zobrist into SS.  After all, they've not played him there until they were a bit desperate last year.  They aren't shy about high K guys, either.  The only real question is whether they sit tight and wait for Hak Ju Lee, get by with Ryan Roberts at 2d for a year, and play Zobrist at SS.  I think the Elliot Johnson / Sean Rodriguez era is over.  Morse is a nice rent a bat for a year for them, but Espinosa would be the long term piece. 

As for the Nats, moving Espinosa gives you a more than adequate solution in Lombo at 2d for a year, with the possibility that Rendon or maybe Kobernus or Renda takes over eventually.  Moore / Tracy with Marrero in AAA gives us plenty of coverage for 1st if LaRoche isn't re-signed.  Trading Morse and Espinosa does not lock Rendon into 2d either, long term, if RZ has to be moved off 3d.   There are back up infielders that can be brought in if we are concerned about depth.

Shields has been a staff leader for a playoff-caliber team for the past 5 seasons.  This isn't some 5th starter.  It leaves plenty of flexibility for 2015 and probably makes extension of JZ and Strasburg easier than if Grienke is signed.  Greinke is getting at least 6 years and over $100MM, and has less big game experience.

Greinke has a Cy Young.  Sure he doesn't have big game experience but neither did Det and he handled it pretty well.  I don't think the team needs the "vet" anymore.  Team made the postseason.  They screwed up in the first round.  They have the film.  They now have the elusive experience and will be a hell of a force when they get back to the postseason.  I'll take five years of Greinke at 25 Mil apiece to lock in an "on paper" WS winning rotation.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be happy with Shields, but shipping out someone like Espinosa or Lombo isn't helping.  Morse's bat won't be around, but I think the team can make up that production with a healthy Zimm and Werth and hopeful improvements from Ramos, Espinosa and the Golden Child.  I'd say power might be down a bit this year from last, but I think runs will be higher and with Span and Werth at the top of the lineup, there will be an awful of runs to be driven in by Harper, Zimmerman and LaRoche.  I'm mindfacting LaRoche coming back by the way.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2495: December 02, 2012, 10:31:31 PM »
Re: Zack Greinke's big game experience

Zack Greinke career postseason stats

3 starts
16.2 innings
12 earned runs (15 total runs)
1.62 WHIP
13 Ks

...small sample size

If Greinke would take less money than what the Dodgers are offering to win fast and win often - okay, correction. If Greinke could sign a contract with us, that does not prevent us from retaining Harper, JZimm, and Strasburg on fat contract extensions (provided they want to stay of course), then I say sure, why not, let's do it! Then trade Morse for left-handed relief pitching and bring back LaRoche and let's win this thing.

But trading Morse for left-handed relief pitching, bringing back LaRoche, and getting an unremarkable 5th starter is OK by me too. Basically what Greinke does is creates the possibility that we could field a starting rotation that could strike out 900 batters in a single season.

The 2003 Chicago Cubs struck out 1,404 batters. In a perfect world, with Greinke and a couple great relief adds, we could try for that record.

Online Mattionals

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2496: December 02, 2012, 10:34:12 PM »
Re: Zack Greinke's big game experience

Zack Greinke career postseason stats

3 starts
16.2 innings
12 earned runs (15 total runs)
1.62 WHIP
13 Ks

...small sample size

I ain't worried, lol.  Sign him up.  I want to win the On Paper World Series™.

Online Slateman

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2497: December 02, 2012, 10:38:37 PM »
Houston, do we bring up Gio and Zimmermann's playoff performance as well?

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2498: December 02, 2012, 10:46:25 PM »
Shields is an absolute horse.  You can count on him for at least 220 innings.  In 2011 he had like 13 complete games.  That is unheard of in today's game.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: 2012/13 Offseason Discussion Thread
« Reply #2499: December 02, 2012, 10:50:22 PM »
Hey Slate, I said small sample size. Greinke's playoff starts don't bother me much at all. But you do know there will be idiot commentators who really DO think his playoff record is some kind of red flag.