Author Topic: Strasburg and the 2012 NLDS  (Read 6728 times)

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Offline comish4lif

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #125: October 11, 2012, 03:13:40 PM »
Back in the day - in the days of 3 and 4 man rotations, nearly every pitcher that came up started in the bullpen.

Nowadays, teams don't have that luxury. Teams need 6-10 starters to get through a 162 game season. And once you use a guy in the bullpen for a month, you need to send him down, or do something to stretch him back out and get him ready to throw 80-100 pitches.

Offline shoeshineboy

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #126: October 11, 2012, 10:16:05 PM »
Sorry, SSB, and WPA, but there were other very credible approaches. 

Go back to the Stark article.  Not that they are perfect, but the Red Sox run their pitching program pretty closely with Andrews disciples, and in the Stark article they talk about the possibility of skipped starts.  Not a cold shut down for a month, which is sort of an straw argument, but just an occasional skipped start.  There are folks willing to put their name on that approach in Stark's article as how they would treat their own players.   there may be other approaches, such as building in more starts with an extra day's rest when games piled up, that are pretty conventional. I'm not doing research now on what has been written on that.

There's no way there were only two credible choices - burn through his innings and shut him down in early September or pitch him continuously despite medical science. 

My point was not that their weren't alternatives to managing the recovery. Obviously there are. I was just arguing that any plan that reduced Strasburg's appearances during the season couldn't be argued for without acknowledging an impact on the ultimate W/L record of the team. If one assumes you can skip a half dozen of his starts and the record remains the same, then one could argue that his impact is not worth preserving.

My point was simply that any plan that reduces his innings during the season couldn't be done knowing that playoff berth would be guaranteed. Only with 20/20 hindsight can someone know the precise number of starts he could skip and still end up with a playoff berth. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #127: October 11, 2012, 10:37:05 PM »
Makes sense.  Certainly they needed the starts in April - June before the hitting got going.  I had been saying to insert a 6th starter any time they went more than 2 rotation turns without an extra day, but that would not extend him into October.  As people have said, the Medlen plan does not look so good if you think it meant having to play in the play in game.  I guess the main point is that, if you were willing to take record risk in the 2d half once the lead was built, there may have been other ways to structure it so he'd hit 160 IP around 10/1, and then he could go once a series after that.

Offline Obed_Marsh

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #128: October 11, 2012, 10:38:51 PM »
I wonder if we win it all, will there be a Strasburg shutdown doubters eat crow thread?

Offline wpa2629

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #129: October 11, 2012, 10:48:38 PM »
Makes sense.  Certainly they needed the starts in April - June before the hitting got going.  I had been saying to insert a 6th starter any time they went more than 2 rotation turns without an extra day, but that would not extend him into October.  As people have said, the Medlen plan does not look so good if you think it meant having to play in the play in game.  I guess the main point is that, if you were willing to take record risk in the 2d half once the lead was built, there may have been other ways to structure it so he'd hit 160 IP around 10/1, and then he could go once a series after that.

The problem with a 6 man rotation is it means less innings pitched for the other 4 starters and it mucks with everyone's routine - Dunno if I want Lannan taking innings away from Gio and Jordan - and as we've seen, Jordan doesn't seem to dig it when he gets off his routine  :shrug:

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #130: October 11, 2012, 10:48:42 PM »
Everyone has always said the best way to end this debate is to just win.

Offline USF_Football

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Not sure if I can think of any other words that explain my disappointment/hangover this morning (and I didn't have one drink). My cousin posted on FB that we should "learn from this". The only thing I learned was that Mike Rizzo sold his soul to Scott Boras and the Nationals paid for it.

Whether you agree with me or not, getting "Strasburged" by Rizzo (and Rizzo being brainwashed enough to think sitting Stras was the only correct decision) altered our rotation considerably. Edwin Jackson may have been worth $11 million during the regular season eating up innings and was brought to DC to support the "Boras Plan", but he's not the third guy in a playoff rotation and never has been.

Anyways... I've always internally wondered after being "Strasburged" by Rizzo if we would become version Cubs 2.0. I only hope I have another opportunity to witness the next Nationals playoff game with my father before he passes on (because Game 3 was surreal - even though we were on the other end of the scoreboard).

By the way, I booked a plane ticket back to DC during the fourth inning of the game last night for the first game of the World Series (you would think as a lifelong Caps fan, I would know better).

Heartbroken, disappointed, and a lot more feelings that can't really be conveyed on paper or in a blog right now. However, like many of you, I'll be back in DC for Opening Day just as optimistic about next year's chances as I have been since April 14th, 2005.

#Natitude

Offline RL04

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #132: October 13, 2012, 10:00:53 AM »
Worst decision in the history of the universe.

 :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Offline RobDibblesGhost

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #133: October 13, 2012, 10:02:48 AM »
Do we really need ANOTHER thread on this topic?  crap, what's done is done and there's nothing we can do about it.  Let's move on.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #134: October 13, 2012, 10:08:04 AM »
Do we really need ANOTHER thread on this topic?  crap, what's done is done and there's nothing we can do about it.  Let's move on.

Moving on sounds nice, but the Strasburg shut down was the story of the season, every recap of the Nats 2012 will begin and end with Rizzo’s folly.

Offline imref

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #135: October 13, 2012, 10:10:14 AM »
Worst decision in the history of the universe.

 :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

I vote that starting yet another "we shouldn't have shut down strasburg thread" is grounds for banning.

Online Baseball is Life

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #136: October 13, 2012, 10:10:57 AM »
It didn't matter. Non issue.

And thanks for being so predictable.

Offline RobDibblesGhost

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #137: October 13, 2012, 10:17:41 AM »
It didn't matter. Non issue.

And thanks for being so predictable.

Right.  Rizzo made the decision and stuck to it.  I refuse to chime in on the debate because no matter what anyone says, nothing's changing.

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #138: October 13, 2012, 10:19:17 AM »
Valid issue or non-valid issue...the sports journos are going to rub the Nats organisation's faces in it all off-season.

Offline BigMeech

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #139: October 13, 2012, 10:29:21 AM »
Last night did feel like the beginning of a curse, though.

The Strasburg curse.  We're doomed.

Offline USF_Football

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #140: October 13, 2012, 10:49:18 AM »
CALSGR8... I really don't see how your quote above applies.

I can understand not giving up... I can understand leaving everything on the field... however, you have to seize the opportunity when the opportunity presents itself.  In this one circumstance alone, Mike Rizzo failed miserably. Rizzo set forth a plan prior to the beginning of this season that did NOT include the end all vision of winning a World Series THIS year. He stuck to his plan even though his plan was flawed (and the flaws were pointed out to him as the season progressed). If you say his plan wasn't flawed, explain how one of the best young arms in the game does not take the mound once in the playoffs. His vision captures the upcoming seasons, but we should not be asked us to follow his rationale blindly... nor will I. You place your team in the best position to win now... tomorrow is never promised. Simply enough, he did not.

Most of us on here have invested money in the Nationals in one form or another... whether buying season tickets, memorabilia, jerseys, etc. Our investment allows the owners to fill  the coffers of Mike Rizzo. I don't expect miracles... I just expect sound leadership. If you tell your captain that the forward compartment is leaking and the ship will eventually sink, you would expect your captain to take corrective action, or some action in general. It was Mike Rizzo's inability to react that has drawn the ire of many of us.

Could we have lost with Strasburg pitching? Without a doubt. We could have potentially been swept. We were never given that opportunity to find out though. And that will always be on the mind of the players and fan base when we look back at the collapse from last night.
 

Online Baseball is Life

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #141: October 13, 2012, 10:52:48 AM »
CALSGR8... I really don't see how your quote above applies.

I can understand not giving up... I can understand leaving everything on the field... however, you have to seize the opportunity when the opportunity presents itself.  In this one circumstance alone, Mike Rizzo failed miserably. Rizzo set forth a plan prior to the beginning of this season that did NOT include the end all vision of winning a World Series THIS year. He stuck to his plan even though his plan was flawed (and the flaws were pointed out to him as the season progressed). If you say his plan wasn't flawed, explain how one of the best young arms in the game does not take the mound once in the playoffs. His vision captures the upcoming seasons, but we should not be asked us to follow his rationale blindly... nor will I. You place your team in the best position to win now... tomorrow is never promised. Simply enough, he did not.

Most of us on here have invested money in the Nationals in one form or another... whether buying season tickets, memorabilia, jerseys, etc. Our investment allows the owners to fill  the coffers of Mike Rizzo. I don't expect miracles... I just expect sound leadership. If you tell your captain that the forward compartment is leaking and the ship will eventually sink, you would expect your captain to take corrective action, or some action in general. It was Mike Rizzo's inability to react that has drawn the ire of many of us.

Could we have lost with Strasburg pitching? Without a doubt. We could have potentially been swept. We were never given that opportunity to find out though. And that will always be on the mind of the players and fan base when we look back at the collapse from last night.
 

I still support the Stras decsion 1,000%. It was a no brainer.

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #142: October 13, 2012, 11:07:10 AM »
Valid issue or non-valid issue...the sports journos are going to rub the Nats organisation's faces in it all off-season.

Who cares. Just come out next season and kick ass.

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #143: October 13, 2012, 11:07:25 AM »
not this crap again

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #144: October 13, 2012, 11:08:15 AM »
I'm not discounting your sentiments.  It's just that many people are posting various quotes that's all.

I don't think criticism of Rizzo is warranted.  How he's gotten us the guys we have is commendable.  We were one strike away.  Rizzo has shown more leadership this season than any GM I know.  The whole Strasburg shutdown, The Cole Hamels fiasco which he got FINED for his comments.  If you're talking getting Prince, I rather have a leader like LaRoche.  Where are the pitchers you think we ought to have?  Greinke?  Oswalt?  Somehow I don't recall seeing them on a post season roster.

As for Strasburg.  When you have surgery, any surgery, there is a rehab plan for your recovery.  The plan for your health and well being is not dictated by circumstances outside your body.  You follow what you have to do regardless of outside circumstances.  Your arm, your leg, your ab6domen doesn't know what's going on!  All those muscles "know" is if you put stress on them too soon, you could make matters worse!  Much worse!  I had knee surgery.  I couldn't get back to work for 4 weeks!  If I was needed, there was no way I could go back to work.  I was in Physical Therapy for about a year.  That's what it takes.  You don't overstress your muscles and joints before they are ready.  That's the plan.  If the BEST ELBOW DOCTOR IN THE COUNTRY SAYS SHUT HIM DOWN, YOU SHUT HIM DOWN.

I know all the media types are going to argue this and argue this and argue this.  We are NOT the Washington Strasburgs.  We ARE THE WASHINGTON NATIONALS!

I APPLAUD RIZZO FOR CARING MORE ABOUT HIS PLAYERS AND NOT LETTING CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATE THEIR HEALTH STATUS!

Offline USF_Football

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #145: October 13, 2012, 11:10:08 AM »
Baseball is Life... You can't be serious about supporting the Stras decision 1,000%. I've read your posts for quite some time, but I just can't drink the same kool aid.

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #146: October 13, 2012, 11:14:30 AM »
As for Strasburg.  When you have surgery, any surgery, there is a rehab plan for your recovery.  The plan for your health and well being is not dictated by circumstances outside your body.  You follow what you have to do regardless of outside circumstances.  Your arm, your leg, your ab6domen doesn't know what's going on!  All those muscles "know" is if you put stress on them too soon, you could make matters worse!  Much worse!  I had knee surgery.  I couldn't get back to work for 4 weeks!  If I was needed, there was no way I could go back to work.  I was in Physical Therapy for about a year.  That's what it takes.  You don't overstress your muscles and joints before they are ready.  That's the plan.  If the BEST ELBOW DOCTOR IN THE COUNTRY SAYS SHUT HIM DOWN, YOU SHUT HIM DOWN.

I know all the media types are going to argue this and argue this and argue this.  We are NOT the Washington Strasburgs.  We ARE THE WASHINGTON NATIONALS!

I APPLAUD RIZZO FOR CARING MORE ABOUT HIS PLAYERS AND NOT LETTING CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATE THEIR HEALTH STATUS!

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #147: October 13, 2012, 11:16:52 AM »
was strasburg supposed to be on the mound for the 9th to close it out? ... no.

did we have other chances earlier to close out the cards? ... yes.

but we were up two runs with two outs and a strike away from advancing to the NLCS, storen didn't get it done (and i'm a drew fan). 

this had nothing to do with strasburg being out.  did we miss him in the playoffs?  absolutely.  but c'mon we were a strike away from winning.

Online Baseball is Life

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #148: October 13, 2012, 11:17:19 AM »
Baseball is Life... You can't be serious about supporting the Stras decision 1,000%. I've read your posts for quite some time, but I just can't drink the same kool aid.

Very serious. Win or lose, it was the right decision. You always put the health of the player first and that's REALLY what's best for the organization on many levels and that has been covered at length.

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: The Strasburg Mistake
« Reply #149: October 13, 2012, 11:21:14 AM »
was strasburg supposed to be on the mound for the 9th to close it out? ... no.

did we have other chances earlier to close out the cards? ... yes.

but we were up two runs with two outs and a strike away from advancing to the NLCS, storen didn't get it done (and i'm a drew fan). 

this had nothing to do with strasburg being out.  did we miss him in the playoffs?  absolutely.  but c'mon we were a strike away from winning.

SANITY