Author Topic: If Davey (and Rizzo) Are So Smart, How Come We’re All Smarter?  (Read 1349 times)

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Offline The Chief

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I can't see this happening to blue.
(Image removed from quote.)


It wouldn't...   blue took a dive all on his own :poke:

:(

Offline MarquisDeSade

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SSB for bench coach.  Gets to whisper intelligent things to MDS, who will go all Grady Little on that stuff. 

:nono:

I'm Dusty "You know what this means" Baker or I'm no one. 

Offline LostYudite

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Seriously?

Here's a novel concept: Win. Davey's here to make the team win. Not make friends. Not be nice to people. To get wins.

If he wants to be the nice guy, he can go back to being in charge of player development. Managers are paid to make tough calls and get production on the field.

I don't remember anyone bringing this up when Matt Stairs wasn't hitting his weight.

Seriously?

Here's a novel concept:  People need stability in order to perform at their peak levels.  If Davey made as many panic moves as we suggest (slide the lineup around, shuttle somebody to AAA, DFA somebody, muck with the starting rotation/bullpen/fielders), you'd never get a chance to have a team develop. 

Imagine if you came into work and your work assignment, pay, and work station was determined day-by-day based on how you did the day before, with little or no reliance on longer-term past performance. How would you do?  Would you perform at your best because you were afraid of losing your place/pay/job?  Could you sustain that level for years?  Would the stress of being judged that minute-to-minute eventually lead you to make mistakes?

Aside from hard decisions being hard, especially when they affect a person's livelihood, shuffling people around and not giving them a stable environment in which to grow and work through difficulties is a bad way to manage anything, let alone a baseball team.  Treat professionals like professionals - they know when they're not performing.  When it becomes obvious that someone's talent isn't cutting it anymore (Lidge, Pudge), then you make the move in the most dignified way possible, so that all the other folks know that you're respectful of their contributions.

That's just management 101 and it's one of the reasons Davey's so much better than Panic Monkey Riggs.


Online houston-nat

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Seriously?

Here's a novel concept:

Actually I got nothin'. I just thought it was a funny line.

Online Slateman

  • Posts: 21634
Seriously?

Here's a novel concept:  People need stability in order to perform at their peak levels.  If Davey made as many panic moves as we suggest (slide the lineup around, shuttle somebody to AAA, DFA somebody, muck with the starting rotation/bullpen/fielders), you'd never get a chance to have a team develop. 

Imagine if you came into work and your work assignment, pay, and work station was determined day-by-day based on how you did the day before, with little or no reliance on longer-term past performance. How would you do?  Would you perform at your best because you were afraid of losing your place/pay/job?  Could you sustain that level for years?  Would the stress of being judged that minute-to-minute eventually lead you to make mistakes?

Aside from hard decisions being hard, especially when they affect a person's livelihood, shuffling people around and not giving them a stable environment in which to grow and work through difficulties is a bad way to manage anything, let alone a baseball team.  Treat professionals like professionals - they know when they're not performing.  When it becomes obvious that someone's talent isn't cutting it anymore (Lidge, Pudge), then you make the move in the most dignified way possible, so that all the other folks know that you're respectful of their contributions.

That's just management 101 and it's one of the reasons Davey's so much better than Panic Monkey Riggs.



Management is the act of getting people together to achieve desired goals and objectives. The key words in there are "achieve desired goals." Davey Johnson's sole purpose in this organization is to get wins.

There's providing stability and there is insanity. Running HRod out to the mound night after night as the closer and expecting something different than a wild pitch is the definition of insanity. Continuing to hit Zimmerman in the 3 hole when he is putrid is insanity. There's a certain point where you have to evaluate the results and act a accordingly. Davey waits way too long on the acting purpose. Simply put, this hesitancy to act is costing us games. Games we're going to wish we had in September when Strasburg gets shut down and the Mets/Marlins/Braves are breathing down our necks.

Players know when they're sucking. Being professional is being honest with them. Quick and clean. It's real nice that you don't want to hurt someone's feelings, but there are 24 other guys on the team that want a win. If you're not helping to achieve the desired goals, then a manager has to make a change in order achieve those desired goals.

Offline Baseball is Life

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Seriously?

Here's a novel concept:  People need stability in order to perform at their peak levels.  If Davey made as many panic moves as we suggest (slide the lineup around, shuttle somebody to AAA, DFA somebody, muck with the starting rotation/bullpen/fielders), you'd never get a chance to have a team develop. 

Imagine if you came into work and your work assignment, pay, and work station was determined day-by-day based on how you did the day before, with little or no reliance on longer-term past performance. How would you do?  Would you perform at your best because you were afraid of losing your place/pay/job?  Could you sustain that level for years?  Would the stress of being judged that minute-to-minute eventually lead you to make mistakes?

Aside from hard decisions being hard, especially when they affect a person's livelihood, shuffling people around and not giving them a stable environment in which to grow and work through difficulties is a bad way to manage anything, let alone a baseball team.  Treat professionals like professionals - they know when they're not performing.  When it becomes obvious that someone's talent isn't cutting it anymore (Lidge, Pudge), then you make the move in the most dignified way possible, so that all the other folks know that you're respectful of their contributions.

That's just management 101 and it's one of the reasons Davey's so much better than Panic Monkey Riggs.



Smart post. So now I have take back everything I've ever said about LostYudite.

Online HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 14568
Seriously?


Aside from hard decisions being hard, especially when they affect a person's livelihood, shuffling people around and not giving them a stable environment in which to grow and work through difficulties is a bad way to manage anything, let alone a baseball team.  Treat professionals like professionals - they know when they're not performing.  When it becomes obvious that someone's talent isn't cutting it anymore (Lidge, Pudge), then you make the move in the most dignified way possible, so that all the other folks know that you're respectful of their contributions.

That's just management 101 and it's one of the reasons Davey's so much better than Panic Monkey Riggs.



So was telling lannan he was the fifth starter until the last day of spring training, or Detwiler he was the fifth starter right before penciling in Wang treating professionals like they're professionals?

Offline OldChelsea

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Offline LostYudite

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Management is the act of getting people together to achieve desired goals and objectives. The key words in there are "achieve desired goals." Davey Johnson's sole purpose in this organization is to get wins.

There's providing stability and there is insanity. Running HRod out to the mound night after night as the closer and expecting something different than a wild pitch is the definition of insanity. Continuing to hit Zimmerman in the 3 hole when he is putrid is insanity. There's a certain point where you have to evaluate the results and act a accordingly. Davey waits way too long on the acting purpose. Simply put, this hesitancy to act is costing us games. Games we're going to wish we had in September when Strasburg gets shut down and the Mets/Marlins/Braves are breathing down our necks.

Players know when they're sucking. Being professional is being honest with them. Quick and clean. It's real nice that you don't want to hurt someone's feelings, but there are 24 other guys on the team that want a win. If you're not helping to achieve the desired goals, then a manager has to make a change in order achieve those desired goals.

This is just riddled with implicit assumptions that I think aren't true.  Assumption #1 - a manager's goal is to go 162-0.  I don't think that's the case.  Baseball isn't football.  You're not going to win every game.  Managing like every last game is the most important game ever played burns people out over a 6-to-7 month season and leaves them nervous and on edge, questioning their talent and looking over their shoulder.  You want to put people in the best possible position to achieve the goal of making the playoffs and maximizing their contribution to the team - if that's not working then you make a change - quick and clean.

Assumptions #2/#3 - HRod is a failure as a relief pitcher and simply can't be used and Zim is completely ineffective as a hitter.  That's not what the historical past pattern says.  Admittedly, they've been terrible lately - I think it's a mistake given Davey's public statements to think that he hasn't noticed.  But for most of last year and much of this year HRod's been unhittable.  Zim has five years of data saying he's a pretty good-to-great MLB hitter.  This, I think is the key question - how much should one balance past performance over a longer-term vs. what-have-you-done-for-me-lately.  As a fan, we all think nearest of near-term.  Harper's a HOFer, no wait, he struck out five times, no, wait, he's TEH AWUSUM again.  Managers who manage with the panic monkey style aren't good managers. 

Assumption #4 - there are any number of equally good or better players ready to step in and pick things up.  Look, I as much as anybody fall for the flavor of the month - Lombo, Moore, Corey Brown, Bernadina, etc.  Some of those guys undoubtedly will develop into good MLB players - others will turn out to be better than the guys they're currently playing behind, but another side affect of panic monkey managing is that your solution can turn out to be worse than your original problem.  HRod sucks - let's get Lidge.  Wait, Lidge sucks - let's get Matheus.  What if he sucks?  Back to H-Rod we will go.

Assumption #5 - a move affecting one player has zero affect on any other player on the club.  Every one of these guys (except mayber Harper and Stras) know that eventually, there's going to be a younger, faster, better player to replace them on the roster.  Every one of them knows that when it comes to Lidge, there but for the grace of God go they.  When you jerk people around, you can make people focus on that and not on doing their job.  Suboptimal performance can result, which could costs you more games than the guy who was causing the problem in the first place.

nagging about the manager being slow to make a move is as traditional in baseball as hotdogs at a Sunday day game.  I may not like it (and I constantly second-guess Davey), you may not like it, but I think part of this is sitting back and letting it happen.  Not every loss matters - and before you say "What about the sox? What about the Braves?" tell me - exactly WHICH of the games they lost was the one that they should have won?  And exactly WHICH of the games they won did they win on a bad break, a bad call that went their way, etc.?

The manager's got to take the long view to be successful.  Like somebody said up above - if they actually DFA'd every player who has a "DFA This Guy" post about him on WNFF, they wouldn't be able to field a starting 9.

Side note on Lannan and Detwiler and Wang:  I don't have much problem with the Wang-for-Detwiler switch in terms of professionalism.  It's been clear since the spring that it was Wang's spot to lose and Det was keeping the seat warm.  Det's the younger guy, Wang's the vet.  I have a bit of a gripe with it because in this case I think Detwiler's track record + potential should outweigh Wang's.  I have a bit more gripe with Lannan - and if you remember, so did the clubhouse - the guys didn't like the way that was handled.  Nobody's perfect, but if they decided they wanted to make the move at least they did it quickly.  And unlike Capt. Leatherpants, they didn't DFA somebody on sports-talk radio.

Online HalfSmokes

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why should vet/young make a difference with wang/detwiler- Detwiler is under team control for years to come, Wang is a free agent- that should tilt the other way.

Offline LostYudite

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why should vet/young make a difference with wang/detwiler- Detwiler is under team control for years to come, Wang is a free agent- that should tilt the other way.

Only because they more or less promised Wang the spot in ST and because you're playing Wang more and because you're going to want them both when you shut Stras down.  It's not a great decision made in a bit of a bad circumstance, I think.  If it weren't for Stras' limit, I think you'd look to trade or DFA Wang.

Offline Tyler Durden

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This is just riddled with implicit assumptions that I think aren't true.  Assumption #1 - a manager's goal is to go 162-0.  I don't think that's the case.  Baseball isn't football.  You're not going to win every game.  Managing like every last game is the most important game ever played burns people out over a 6-to-7 month season and leaves them nervous and on edge, questioning their talent and looking over their shoulder.  You want to put people in the best possible position to achieve the goal of making the playoffs and maximizing their contribution to the team - if that's not working then you make a change - quick and clean.

Assumptions #2/#3 - HRod is a failure as a relief pitcher and simply can't be used and Zim is completely ineffective as a hitter.  That's not what the historical past pattern says.  Admittedly, they've been terrible lately - I think it's a mistake given Davey's public statements to think that he hasn't noticed.  But for most of last year and much of this year HRod's been unhittable.  Zim has five years of data saying he's a pretty good-to-great MLB hitter.  This, I think is the key question - how much should one balance past performance over a longer-term vs. what-have-you-done-for-me-lately.  As a fan, we all think nearest of near-term.  Harper's a HOFer, no wait, he struck out five times, no, wait, he's TEH AWUSUM again.  Managers who manage with the panic monkey style aren't good managers. 

Assumption #4 - there are any number of equally good or better players ready to step in and pick things up.  Look, I as much as anybody fall for the flavor of the month - Lombo, Moore, Corey Brown, Bernadina, etc.  Some of those guys undoubtedly will develop into good MLB players - others will turn out to be better than the guys they're currently playing behind, but another side affect of panic monkey managing is that your solution can turn out to be worse than your original problem.  HRod sucks - let's get Lidge.  Wait, Lidge sucks - let's get Matheus.  What if he sucks?  Back to H-Rod we will go.

Assumption #5 - a move affecting one player has zero affect on any other player on the club.  Every one of these guys (except mayber Harper and Stras) know that eventually, there's going to be a younger, faster, better player to replace them on the roster.  Every one of them knows that when it comes to Lidge, there but for the grace of God go they.  When you jerk people around, you can make people focus on that and not on doing their job.  Suboptimal performance can result, which could costs you more games than the guy who was causing the problem in the first place.

nagging about the manager being slow to make a move is as traditional in baseball as hotdogs at a Sunday day game.  I may not like it (and I constantly second-guess Davey), you may not like it, but I think part of this is sitting back and letting it happen.  Not every loss matters - and before you say "What about the sox? What about the Braves?" tell me - exactly WHICH of the games they lost was the one that they should have won?  And exactly WHICH of the games they won did they win on a bad break, a bad call that went their way, etc.?

The manager's got to take the long view to be successful.  Like somebody said up above - if they actually DFA'd every player who has a "DFA This Guy" post about him on WNFF, they wouldn't be able to field a starting 9.

Side note on Lannan and Detwiler and Wang:  I don't have much problem with the Wang-for-Detwiler switch in terms of professionalism.  It's been clear since the spring that it was Wang's spot to lose and Det was keeping the seat warm.  Det's the younger guy, Wang's the vet.  I have a bit of a gripe with it because in this case I think Detwiler's track record + potential should outweigh Wang's.  I have a bit more gripe with Lannan - and if you remember, so did the clubhouse - the guys didn't like the way that was handled.  Nobody's perfect, but if they decided they wanted to make the move at least they did it quickly.  And unlike Capt. Leatherpants, they didn't DFA somebody on sports-talk radio.

Excellent post!

This was the reason Riggs was a bad manager.  He was trying to win every game (maybe understandably so - he knew that his job was at risk) and burned out his best relievers and double switched us to death.

The comparison to football is excellent and, given the lack of baseball in DC for many years and the preeminence of the football team, might help explain why Boz feels the need to tell newbie baseball fans not to panic.  Football fans in DC are quick to proclaim playoffs after a 3-1 start or declare the season over after a 1-3 start.  Baseball is different.  You can trade 1 loss now for hopefully 2 wins later in baseball.

Online HalfSmokes

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Lannan was promised a slot out of ST and he makes more than Wang, so I don't know if those arguments work

Offline LostYudite

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Lannan was promised a slot out of ST and he makes more than Wang, so I don't know if those arguments work

Which is why the decision didn't sit well with the club, right?  It seemed unfair, and perhaps it was.  Like I said, nobody, even great managers, make the right decisions the right way all the time.

Offline LostYudite

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Excellent post!

This was the reason Riggs was a bad manager.  He was trying to win every game (maybe understandably so - he knew that his job was at risk) and burned out his best relievers and double switched us to death.

Thanks - that's why it seems surprising to me now that people are on Davey's case. Riggs was a classic panic monkey - different lineups every day, constant double-switching, etc.  Admittedly, he didn't have the talent level early last year that we have now and he didn't have the resume that Davey has, so maybe he needed to be more jumpy, but it pretty clearly got on the team's nerves.  Another big, but underrated thing is that a young team is going to look to the manager for how to react in certain situations.  If Davey panics after the Yanks sweep, it tells everybody in the clubhouse that that was A BIG DEAL, and maybe it sets off a tailspin.  If he grins and shakes his head and says "We'll learn from it.  Get 'em tomorrow," it tells them that it's not the end of the world - maybe they catch their breath and bounce back. 

Guess we'll test that theory tonight.  ;)

Online Slateman

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Which is why the decision didn't sit well with the club, right?  It seemed unfair, and perhaps it was.  Like I said, nobody, even great managers, make the right decisions the right way all the time.

Then by the previous logic, the team should be underperforming.

Online KnorrForYourMoney

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:nono:

I'm Dusty "You know what this means" Baker or I'm no one. 

You mean Dusty "Walks Clog Up the Basepaths" Baker?

Offline LostYudite

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Then by the previous logic, the team should be underperforming.

Good troll.

Absolutely! Because in the case of one bad decision thought to be bad in March followed by months of support to a young team and Detwiler outperforming Lannan, clearly it will suppress performance for months.  I mean really, they're probably going to underperform until they turn the whole roster over.  :roll:

Online houston-nat

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Then by the previous logic, the team should be underperforming.

According to Fangraphs WAR, we're underperforming by two wins. According to B-R Pythag, we're overperforming by two wins.

Online Slateman

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Good troll.

Absolutely! Because in the case of one bad decision thought to be bad in March followed by months of support to a young team and Detwiler outperforming Lannan, clearly it will suppress performance for months.  I mean really, they're probably going to underperform until they turn the whole roster over.  :roll:

You just said that performance is dependant on stability. Yet, twice,  Davey has done something to shake that stability. According to you, the team should not be performing at peak levels.


Online Slateman

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This is just riddled with implicit assumptions that I think aren't true.  Assumption #1 - a manager's goal is to go 162-0.  I don't think that's the case.  Baseball isn't football.  You're not going to win every game.  Managing like every last game is the most important game ever played burns people out over a 6-to-7 month season and leaves them nervous and on edge, questioning their talent and looking over their shoulder.  You want to put people in the best possible position to achieve the goal of making the playoffs and maximizing their contribution to the team - if that's not working then you make a change - quick and clean.

Wow. So, at the beginning of the certain games, the manager just goes, "Welp, we can't win them all." No. You play to win the game. If you start managing with the notion that "we'll get them tomorrow," you will never pull out a victory.

Assumptions #2/#3 - HRod is a failure as a relief pitcher and simply can't be used and Zim is completely ineffective as a hitter.  That's not what the historical past pattern says.  Admittedly, they've been terrible lately - I think it's a mistake given Davey's public statements to think that he hasn't noticed.  But for most of last year and much of this year HRod's been unhittable.  Zim has five years of data saying he's a pretty good-to-great MLB hitter.  This, I think is the key question - how much should one balance past performance over a longer-term vs. what-have-you-done-for-me-lately.  As a fan, we all think nearest of near-term.  Harper's a HOFer, no wait, he struck out five times, no, wait, he's TEH AWUSUM again.  Managers who manage with the panic monkey style aren't good managers. 

I never said HRod failed as a relief pitcher. I said he failed as a CLOSER. Becaues Davey Johnson's belief that he had "closer stuff" he used HRod as a closer. HRod continued to fail. Several outings in a row he completely and utterly failed to throw strikes. Despite what was obvious to the rest of baseball (Clippard should have been the closer), Davey continued to trot out Henry Rodriguez.

Ryan Zimmerman is hitting putrid, by his own admission. Davey Johnson has already said he's concerned. And yet Davey does nothing. Not a drop in the order, not a day off, nothing. Just keep trotting him out there with runners in scoring position and act baffeled by the lack of production.


Assumption #4 - there are any number of equally good or better players ready to step in and pick things up.  Look, I as much as anybody fall for the flavor of the month - Lombo, Moore, Corey Brown, Bernadina, etc.  Some of those guys undoubtedly will develop into good MLB players - others will turn out to be better than the guys they're currently playing behind, but another side affect of panic monkey managing is that your solution can turn out to be worse than your original problem.  HRod sucks - let's get Lidge.  Wait, Lidge sucks - let's get Matheus.  What if he sucks?  Back to H-Rod we will go.

We have good players on this team. Lombardozzi stepped up huge when Zimmerman went down. So much so that Davey was forced to find a way to play him everyday. We have continued to have guys step up and perform from their roles on the bench this season. Chad Tracy, Lombardozzi, Bernadina, Burnett, Moore ... guys are showing they want the playing time and they can produce results.


Assumption #5 - a move affecting one player has zero affect on any other player on the club.  Every one of these guys (except mayber Harper and Stras) know that eventually, there's going to be a younger, faster, better player to replace them on the roster.  Every one of them knows that when it comes to Lidge, there but for the grace of God go they.  When you jerk people around, you can make people focus on that and not on doing their job.  Suboptimal performance can result, which could costs you more games than the guy who was causing the problem in the first place.


It's a business. And Davey has already been jerking people around. Lannan goes to Triple A? Detwiler, despite pitching quite well, gets yanked for Chen Ming Wang? It's funny, it doesn't seem to have affected the rotation very much.

You perform, you keep your job. We're not team building anymore. We're competing. We might actually have a shot at this division this year. Or we can worry about hurting people's feelings and keep people in position to lose the club ball games. Afterall, the players don't really care about that, so long as everyone in clubhouse is getting along good. Heck, someone go get Brad Lidge ...

Offline grizzly

  • Posts: 39
Another big, but underrated thing is that a young team is going to look to the manager for how to react in certain situations.  If Davey panics after the Yanks sweep, it tells everybody in the clubhouse that that was A BIG DEAL, and maybe it sets off a tailspin.  If he grins and shakes his head and says "We'll learn from it.  Get 'em tomorrow," it tells them that it's not the end of the world - maybe they catch their breath and bounce back. 


+1

Especially given the age and big-game inexperience of this team.  Look at Bruce Boudreau's playoff teams versus Dale Hunter's.  Bruce use to panic and the team would follow, Dale's even-keel approach had them much more resilient.

Assuming that Davey doesn't know Zimmerman is hitting poorly despite keeping him in the three spot is really insulting his intelligence.

Offline grizzly

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You perform, you keep your job. We're not team building anymore. We're competing. We might actually have a shot at this division this year. Or we can worry about hurting people's feelings and keep people in position to lose the club ball games.

I didn't realize it was this easy to manager professional athletes.  Should we tell Davey?

Online Slateman

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I didn't realize it was this easy to manager professional athletes.  Should we tell Davey?

Someone should. Guys hitting below their weight after 50 ABs should not be hitting above 6th in the order.

He's not managing athletes. He's managing the game. Athletes are the tools with which to win games.

Like I said, if he wants to be a people person, he can go back to being an advisor to Mike Rizzo.