Strasburg in October..

[HalfSmokes]

Bad streak? We just won 2/3 from a division rival.

So Gio played well today, Jackson is right on track? Because I was referring to the starters

[Baseball is Life]

From "I'll rip them" to "I will be shocked".

Next week "whatever Rizzo says"

How about I will be shocked and I will rip them. Unless they get the go ahead from the docs. Which is what I said all along.

Note - edited to remove the ad hominem stuff - jca

[Obed_Marsh]

I am glad we have a GM with X-Ray eyes.

[Ray D]

Rizzo has said that he won't go 200.   That's as specific as he has been.

[BerakosVA]

Happy B-day Stras

[Lintyfresh85]

[RobDibblesGhost]

Washington, which leads the National League East by 3 1/2 games, had previously set a 160-inning limit for Strasburg, who turns 24 on Friday. That number may no longer apply, but Rizzo told ESPN on Wednesday that he alone will make the call.

"There is no magic number," Rizzo said. "It will be the eye test. [Manager] Davey [Johnson] won't decide, and ownership won't decide. It will be the general manager, and that's me."

Strasburg is 10-4 with a 2.66 ERA and leads the NL in strikeouts, with 135 in 105 innings. The No. 1 overall pick in the 2009 First-Year Player Draft underwent Tommy John surgery as a rookie in 2010 and pitched in only five games after returning late last season.

With the Nationals on track for their first playoff appearance since moving to Washington in 2005, debate already is raging about how the club should handle Strasburg. Rizzo now has put all of that pressure on his own shoulders.

"We'll do it my way," he told ESPN. "I have the full support of ownership on this issue. It's my decision, and I've made it. There will be no going back on the decision."

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Is that Lorb who wrote that?  Can he point to an earlier quote from Rizzo in either his or another beat writer's column that attributes 160 IP to Rizzo?  Is it an off the record statement from Rizzo?  Is Davey or McCatty the source?  A doctor who is not supposed to talk about his patient's medical history?  I know there have been comparisons to JZ's 2011, but when did the number become THE NUMBER?

[Baseball is Life]

Is that Lorb who wrote that?  Can he point to an earlier quote from Rizzo in either his or another beat writer's column that attributes 160 IP to Rizzo?  Is it an off the record statement from Rizzo?  Is Davey or McCatty the source?  A doctor who is not supposed to talk about his patient's medical history?  I know there have been comparisons to JZ's 2011, but when did the number become THE NUMBER?

The number became the number when they shut down JZimm at that number.

For me, the JZimm model is the key. They shut him down at 160 or so and that's a fact. So why should they treat Stras differently, especially since both are on identical schedules? It's not like the medical advice or information has changed.

[blue911]

Scott Boras :

http://siriusxmsports.posterous.com/scott-boras-mlb-agent-discusses-stephen-stras

[JCA-CrystalCity]

BiL - it was always a best guess by the media and never directly attributed to Rizzo or the med / training staff.  I think maybe McCatty or Davey used it or didn't deny, but it was either in response to questions using the number or they would cite a media report.  I think the team has mentioned the JZ example to say they will shut a guy down when he hits his limit, but I don't think the number ever was etched on a tablet from Sinai.  We don't know if the 161.1 for JZ was due to physical stress / fatigue measurements or was set regardless of how well his physique was handling the load. 

I think the 160 became just something to make the argument more fun for BB tonight, MLB tonight, Fox / Yardbarker, etc...  They wanted to make it clear and wooden.  Now they treat this a big change.  It isn't.

[Obed_Marsh]

So why should they treat Stras differently, especially since both are on identical schedules? It's not like the medical advice or information has changed.

Ah yes. Good thing humans are identical and made of interchangable parts.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

This assumes Strasburg is human and not a cyborg.

[HalfSmokes]

This assumes Strasburg is human and not a cyborg.

if he's cyborg, just throw him all season- he's probably still under warranty

[Obed_Marsh]

If they are cyborgs we need to order more Strasburg models.

[HerndonNat]

BiL - it was always a best guess by the media and never directly attributed to Rizzo or the med / training staff.  I think maybe McCatty or Davey used it or didn't deny, but it was either in response to questions using the number or they would cite a media report.  I think the team has mentioned the JZ example to say they will shut a guy down when he hits his limit, but I don't think the number ever was etched on a tablet from Sinai.  We don't know if the 161.1 for JZ was due to physical stress / fatigue measurements or was set regardless of how well his physique was handling the load. 

I think the 160 became just something to make the argument more fun for BB tonight, MLB tonight, Fox / Yardbarker, etc...  They wanted to make it clear and wooden.  Now they treat this a big change.  It isn't.

The media has been quoting Rizzo as saying it since the beginning of the season!

[PowerBoater69]

if he's cyborg, just throw him all season- he's probably still under warranty

Unless he was made in America, Fix Or Repair Daily

[Hogie]

We weren't making the playoffs last year, so why not shut down Zimmermann at 160 just to be extra careful? For all we know, he could have gone 180 last year if the games in September were important.

[Baseball is Life]

Ah yes. Good thing humans are identical and made of interchangable parts.

If you're point is they're not identical, I get that. But they are more similar than not. Both underwent TJ surgery in September at roughly the same point in their careers. Both took about a year to get back on the mond.

And please let's not argue one is bigger or threw more innings in college or whatever. The reality is that the JZimm followed generally accepted medical guidelines for recovery from TJ surgery and Stras should do the same.

Or let me put it another way. I would do whatever the docs say to do. I wouldn't make my decision on how well or not he's pitching at that point. That's right. You heard it right. His performance is not an indicator of the stress he's putting on his recovering elbow.

[Obed_Marsh]

The reality is that the JZimm followed generally accepted medical guidelines for recovery from TJ surgery and Stras should do the same.

It is a range and not a number. Laughable to assume Zimmermann is the same as Strasburg. I have little doubt they will monitor him closely and it will be more complex than an eye test unless Rizzo is idiot. I'd imagine it is just the buck stops here rhetoric with his usual akward public speaking issues.

[Baseball is Life]

Laughable to assume Zimmermann is the same as Strasburg.

How are JZimm and Stras different in the context of this discussion?

[KnorrForYourMoney]

People heal differently.  You're aware of that, right?

[Obed_Marsh]

How are JZimm and Stras different in the context of this discussion?

Lets do this real slow now from University of Wisconsin Sports Medicine's Rehabilitation Guidelines for Elbow Ulnar Collateral Ligament (UCL)
Reconstruction.

PHASE I (surgery to 3 weeks after surgery)
PHASE II (begin after meeting Phase 1 criteria, usually 4-8 weeks after surgery)
PHASE III (begin after meeting Phase II criteria, usually 9–12 weeks after surgery)
PHASE IV (begin after meeting Phase III criteria, usually 13-20 weeks after surgery)
PHASE V (begin after meeting Phase IV criteria, usually 21-36 weeks after surgery)

Notice how each of these phases have ranges? Notice how there are objective criteria which is measured through each stage progression? Now lets think twice before swaying that Zimmermann and Strasburg are the same or that there is some magic number which they are keeping to themselves. It is obviously more complicated than that for anyone paying attention.

[Baseball is Life]

People heal differently.  You're aware of that, right?

Yes, but not radically differently. That speaks to the ranges thing. I get that.  I don't need to read some circular to get it. But the question is what is the accepted range and what is the prognosis for that patient? I have no idea but I'm willing to let the doctors tell me.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

the link Blue posted is a good one.  folks should listen to it.  Boras makes the point that there have been thousands of rehabs from this surgery, so things like how fast is recovery time and how hard to push a recovering arm is not based on just a bunch of writers and former players saying, "it's a pennant race, you can't pull him out."  there is a medical protocol.

What is interesting is whether the common "it's so many innings" is more of an appoximation or whether that is still the best guage. 

herndon - can you find quotes, or are they paraphrases and someone suggesting this was Rizzo's thinking.  I don't think you can find quotes from Rizzo.  What you'll find is writers inventing the number or interpreting Rizzo's references to the same program as JZ as meaning the same number of innings.  Just find him quoted  saying 160 is the number once.