Author Topic: The Weather (2012)  (Read 18480 times)

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Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #925: November 01, 2012, 11:39:35 PM »
Or maybe we'll invest in infrastructure- most major east coast cities are on the water,  if we're willing to protect far smaller communities along rivers and smaller cities like new Orleans, then I'd expect that you'll see more money poured into the North East if this starts becoming common. 

You, sir, are a pinko that deserves to be burned at the stake talking that betterment of society nonsense. You need to tell those people "tuff titty" and demand they move somewhere less likely to be disaster prone, like Alaska.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #926: November 02, 2012, 12:19:16 AM »
or Chicago.  Though people there get strangled all the time by angry kielbasas or die in horrible bowling accidents

You, sir, are a pinko that deserves to be burned at the stake talking that betterment of society nonsense. You need to tell those people "tuff titty" and demand they move somewhere less likely to be disaster prone, like Alaska.


Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #927: November 02, 2012, 07:41:53 AM »
or Chicago.  Though people there get strangled all the time by angry kielbasas or die in horrible bowling accidents

The only angry kielbasa strangling going on there is happening in Boystown. Skokie is still the second greatest place on earth.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #928: November 02, 2012, 09:04:27 AM »
I  hate to admit that I saw this on Rachel Maddow, but she picked about 10 or so metro areas directly on the coast (something like LA, Seattle, SF, New Orleans, Jacksonville, Miami, Norfolk/Newport News, Balmer, NYC, and Boston) and pointed out 63 MM people live in those cities on the coast, or about 20% of US population.  She said she skipped over Houston, Philly, Providence and Washington because they were less directly exposed even though they were on estuaries (query why Balmer then?), but those too are hurricane or tsunami exposed.

Flood insurance really needs a hard look when it comes to envcouoraging development of barrier islands, but we need ports and we can't go Cambodian and empty our cities that have ceased to function as significant ports.  You do have to wonder how much of Chris Christie's we'll rebuild everything is just a gut reaction, but the Jersey shore is a heck of a resource and source of livelihood.  The Lower 9th in NO is still not back, so some of this shore community destruction will not return.  Maybe that makes sense economically and environmentally (don't waste money and expose lives), but it is still devastating if it ends this way for so many families.  some hardening of our cities is probably feasible and needed at a high cost, and rebuilding the shore with an expectation that what you build will be flooded at some point (that is, less intense, fewer residents, less capital, and prudent investment in reconstructed dunes and seawalls) is probably the right path forward.

BTW - Has there been any talk of flood gates on the Potomac south of the city?

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #929: November 02, 2012, 09:07:31 AM »
That's too much text. One point though - isn't Cambodia the size of Minnesota?

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #930: November 02, 2012, 09:12:23 AM »
I  hate to admit that I saw this on Rachel Maddow, but she picked about 10 or so metro areas directly on the coast (something like LA, Seattle, SF, New Orleans, Jacksonville, Miami, Norfolk/Newport News, Balmer, NYC, and Boston) and pointed out 63 MM people live in those cities on the coast, or about 20% of US population.  She said she skipped over Houston, Philly, Providence and Washington because they were less directly exposed even though they were on estuaries (query why Balmer then?), but those too are hurricane or tsunami exposed.

Flood insurance really needs a hard look when it comes to envcouoraging development of barrier islands, but we need ports and we can't go Cambodian and empty our cities that have ceased to function as significant ports.  You do have to wonder how much of Chris Christie's we'll rebuild everything is just a gut reaction, but the Jersey shore is a heck of a resource and source of livelihood.  The Lower 9th in NO is still not back, so some of this shore community destruction will not return.  Maybe that makes sense economically and environmentally (don't waste money and expose lives), but it is still devastating if it ends this way for so many families.  some hardening of our cities is probably feasible and needed at a high cost, and rebuilding the shore with an expectation that what you build will be flooded at some point (that is, less intense, fewer residents, less capital, and prudent investment in reconstructed dunes and seawalls) is probably the right path forward.

BTW - Has there been any talk of flood gates on the Potomac south of the city?

I think they will definitely rebuild the shore- the property has intrinsic value as a vacation location. The 'communities' might not come back, but second homes and rentals will.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #931: November 02, 2012, 09:13:30 AM »
Good point, Boss.  This is the real point:

"Flood insurance really needs a hard look when it comes to encouraging development of barrier islands, but we need ports and we can't go Cambodian and empty our cities that have ceased to function as significant ports."

A good editor would have caught that.

don't know about Minnesota v. Cambodia.  Mekong vs. the Mississippi

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #932: November 02, 2012, 09:16:05 AM »
That's too much text. One point though - isn't Cambodia the size of Minnesota?

About the size of Missouri.

Offline NationalHeat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #933: November 02, 2012, 09:23:47 AM »
Gee, Coladar, that rant is amazing.  Even if you think everyone who died was a dipcrap for staying put, homes were f'ng destroyed, tunnels flooded, power lost for several millions, fires started that were inaccessible to first responders etc...  I'll toss in that I don't know how easy it is to get that many senior citizens out of high apartments, especially when they may not have a car.  There is absolutely nothing that they could have been done about the property damage, which is already measured at about half a Katrina.  How you can even compare it to the derecho is just idiocy.

Great post. I lived through Andrew in FL; you simply don't understand the power and damage associated with a real hurricane until you live through it.

Also, all that old Jersey Shore infrastructure was simply not built to withstand hurricanes.

Online imref

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #934: November 02, 2012, 09:28:33 AM »
here's something amazing, the flood zone in NYC directly corresponds to the landfill areas, the original island survived.

http://updates.gizmodo.com/post/34784175229/manhattans-sandy-evacuation-zones-match-up-with

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #935: November 02, 2012, 09:43:02 AM »
makes sense.  when you landfill, you don't add an extra 15 feet of height to get further above the water line than the code allows.

They were saying the flood back in the the early 1800s reached Canal Street.  There must have been some build up in the old island area, because I don't think this one did.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #936: November 02, 2012, 10:04:48 AM »
I was there for that party too.  We were lucky, being just off Lejeune road in Coconut Grove, we were maybe a half mile north of the eyewall. South Miami got hit pretty well, and down in South Cutler it was a moonscape (Kendall got waxed too, but mainly because the houses were built out of tinker toys).  The National Hurricane Center in Coral Gables was a few blocks away, and the anemometer blew off their roof when the wind was kicking 136 mph IIRC.  Our house was designed by a Miami architect who survived the big 1927 hurricane and was obsessed with storm survival...consequently, it had a low single-story profile with the low-slung roof anchored into the limestone with wrought iron supports.  Steel hurricane shutters throughout as well.  Many houses around the neighbourhood lost their roof, but we were OK.  Though having those hurricane shutters closed with no power to reopen them for the next month made the house a suffocating oven.

Great post. I lived through Andrew in FL; you simply don't understand the power and damage associated with a real hurricane until you live through it.

Also, all that old Jersey Shore infrastructure was simply not built to withstand hurricanes.


Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #937: November 02, 2012, 10:04:50 AM »
here's something amazing, the flood zone in NYC directly corresponds to the landfill areas, the original island survived.

http://updates.gizmodo.com/post/34784175229/manhattans-sandy-evacuation-zones-match-up-with


cities can be protected if there is political will


Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #938: November 02, 2012, 10:06:29 AM »
cities can be protected if there is political will

AND MESS UP THE SKYLINES!?!?!?!  ARE YOU INSANE THIS ISN'T EUROPE YOU PINKO!

Offline NationalHeat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #939: November 02, 2012, 10:06:52 AM »
cities can be protected if there is political will

(Image removed from quote.)


Where is that?

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #940: November 02, 2012, 10:07:25 AM »
Most cities in the Netherlands have those.  I *think* the Thames estuary does as well.

Offline NationalHeat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #941: November 02, 2012, 10:07:58 AM »
I was there for that party too.  We were lucky, being just off Lejeune road in Coconut Grove, we were maybe a half mile north of the eyewall. South Miami got hit pretty well, and down in South Cutler it was a moonscape (Kendall got waxed too, but mainly because the houses were built out of tinker toys).  The National Hurricane Center in Coral Gables was a few blocks away, and the anemometer blew off their roof when the wind was kicking 136 mph IIRC.  Our house was designed by a Miami architect who survived the big 1927 hurricane and was obsessed with storm survival...consequently, it had a low single-story profile with the low-slung roof anchored into the limestone with wrought iron supports.  Steel hurricane shutters throughout as well.  Many houses around the neighbourhood lost their roof, but we were OK.  Though having those hurricane shutters closed with no power to reopen them for the next month made the house a suffocating oven.

I lived in Hialeah, so far north of the eye. Neighborhood survived ok for a cat 5 cane, some roofs came off, thats it.

I'm happy that Miami has the political will to fend off the sea and hurricanes. That place became a fort after Andrew.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #942: November 02, 2012, 10:09:05 AM »
Where is that?


Netherlands- it protects a huge estuary from North Sea Storms- it's part of a large system


Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #943: November 02, 2012, 10:09:34 AM »
People were getting all crazy over ice that month.  Like trading their cars for a bag of it. 

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #944: November 02, 2012, 10:11:00 AM »
They had thousands of people die in a huge North Sea storm in the early 1950s...it was pretty much a consensus to build that afterwards. 

Netherlands- it protects a huge estuary from North Sea Storms- it's part of a large system

(Image removed from quote.)



Offline 1995hoo

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #945: November 02, 2012, 10:20:18 AM »
Most cities in the Netherlands have those.  I *think* the Thames estuary does as well.

Correct on the Thames—it's called the Thames Barrier. It's the second-biggest in the world after the one in the Netherlands.

Online imref

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #946: November 02, 2012, 10:27:31 AM »
Most cities in the Netherlands have those.  I *think* the Thames estuary does as well.

what exactly "is" that?

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #947: November 02, 2012, 10:29:05 AM »
Correct on the Thames—it's called the Thames Barrier. It's the second-biggest in the world after the one in the Netherlands.


Pictures of the Thames Barrier - http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=yfp-t-701&va=thames+barrier - I just wish the river cruises went that far downstream during the times I go to London. It's really quite an engineering achievement.

Offline Boss Dealwiler

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #948: November 02, 2012, 10:31:10 AM »
It's really quite an engineering achievement.

This is America, our only "engineering" achievements are getting morons to play games on Fecesbook and building speculative pricing models based on faulty assumptions.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: The Weather (2012)
« Reply #949: November 02, 2012, 10:36:25 AM »
Hey now, what about the Corn Palace??
This is America, our only "engineering" achievements are getting morons to play games on Fecesbook and building speculative pricing models based on faulty assumptions.