Author Topic: Define Natitude  (Read 46518 times)

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Offline tomterp

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #625: January 16, 2012, 11:07:31 AM »
Yesterday I pointed out an comment as one of the dumbest five arguments in the short history of the Nats message boards.  Not a nice way to put it, but in any case this morning I started wondering about the other four arguments that fit into this category.  Here's what I came up with:

5) Building a ballpark was a smart fiscal move for the city.

I think this will be proved true as time moves on.  Sure, the timing couldn't have been worse, just on the precipice of the Great Recession, but already we are seeing more projects underway in the immediate area of the ballpark.  Tax revenue to the city from the area is significantly improved as well, and will only continue to grow.  Sure the move hasn't been the slam dunk win that was forecast, but treading water for now is a good sign and things will only get much better for the city (in terms of incremental revenue generated).

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #626: January 16, 2012, 11:13:37 AM »
Yesterday I pointed out an comment as one of the dumbest five arguments in the short history of the Nats message boards.  Not a nice way to put it, but in any case this morning I started wondering about the other four arguments that fit into this category.  Here's what I came up with:

5) Building a ballpark was a smart fiscal move for the city.
4) The Bowden/Kasten years set the team back, so the two/five year clock should reset with their departure.
3) The old man would have spent more money earlier but he didn't trust Bowden.
2) Allowing Soriano/Dunn to walk in exchange for compensation picks was the smart move by Jimbo/Rizzo.
All time dumbest: 1) The old man really did authorize Bowden/Rizzo to spend more, but the GMs decided to leave money on the table.


Honorable mention goes to Ryan Church's Uncle Lurch who had his nephew picked as ROY if Frank Robinson hadn't held him back.

RE: #2, we did draft Zimmermann with the Soriano pick, and I'd much rather have Zimmermann than Soriano.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #627: January 16, 2012, 11:15:41 AM »
I think this will be proved true as time moves on.  Sure, the timing couldn't have been worse, just on the precipice of the Great Recession, but already we are seeing more projects underway in the immediate area of the ballpark.  Tax revenue to the city from the area is significantly improved as well, and will only continue to grow.  Sure the move hasn't been the slam dunk win that was forecast, but treading water for now is a good sign and things will only get much better for the city (in terms of incremental revenue generated).

Maybe it will turn out alright for the city, although we will never know whether the area redevelopment would have occurred without the ballpark.  Certainly the hotels and restaurants who are footing the bill have not seen much return on their investment.  So far the deal has been a gold mine for the Lerners, Angelos, and MLB, but the city took all of the risk and is still looking for the reward (or even a winning season).

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #628: January 16, 2012, 11:17:38 AM »
RE: #2, we did draft Zimmermann with the Soriano pick, and I'd much rather have Zimmermann than Soriano.

If you spent your paycheck on lottery tickets and won the jackpot would that have been the smart move?

Offline tomterp

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #629: January 16, 2012, 11:18:28 AM »
Maybe it will turn out alright for the city, although we will never know whether the area redevelopment would have occurred without the ballpark.  Certainly the hotels and restaurants who are footing the bill have not seen much return on their investment.  So far the deal has been a gold mine for the Lerners, Angelos, and MLB, but the city took all of the risk and is still looking for the reward (or even a winning season).

Of course we'll never know where development might have headed, but I don't think there is any doubt that the ballpark location jump started the whole rebuilding process in that area.  Property values shot up immediately, along with the concurrent increase in property taxes.

It would be interesting to hear JD's take on the impact of the ballpark on the whole area. 

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #630: January 16, 2012, 11:20:39 AM »
Property values shot up immediately, along with the concurrent increase in property taxes.

And more poor folks were pushed out to Ward 9 to make room for the yuppie brigade.  :spaz:

Offline tomterp

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #631: January 16, 2012, 11:22:47 AM »
And more poor folks were pushed out to Ward 9 to make room for the yuppie brigade.  :spaz:

Sometimes the poor folks win, sometimes the rich folks.   

I know, it's been hard to say goodbye to the Follies.  You'll get over it.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #632: January 16, 2012, 11:23:30 AM »
Of course we'll never know where development might have headed, but I don't think there is any doubt that the ballpark location jump started the whole rebuilding process in that area.  Property values shot up immediately, along with the concurrent increase in property taxes.

It would be interesting to hear JD's take on the impact of the ballpark on the whole area. 

There is no disputing that dropping over six hundred million bucks into the area spurred on other private development efforts.  The question is whether that pile of cash would have been more effective if it had been spread around a bit.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #633: January 16, 2012, 11:26:21 AM »
And more poor folks were pushed out to Ward 9 to make room for the yuppie brigade.  :spaz:

The only problem there is that we didn't push then out further.

Offline tomterp

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #634: January 16, 2012, 11:26:32 AM »
There is no disputing that dropping over six hundred million bucks into the area spurred on other private development efforts.  The question is whether that pile of cash would have been more effective if it had been spread around a bit.

I would argue that most of the time DC blows cash on stuff there isn't the opportunity for good returns that exist with this project.  If you mean that in theory, if the money were spent with the utmost of efficiency, timing and for the greatest impact, then yeah, I'm sure it could have been spent better.  But that's a theoreticall what-if that is pretty far from what anyone could expect.

Offline tomterp

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #635: January 16, 2012, 11:27:32 AM »
The only problem there is that we didn't push then out further.

And weren't there about 4 or 5 people living in the whole stinking area?  Not counting the street people holed up in the abandoned warehouses, maybe 20 if you count them too.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #636: January 16, 2012, 11:33:29 AM »
And weren't there about 4 or 5 people living in the whole stinking area?  Not counting the street people holed up in the abandoned warehouses, maybe 20 if you count them too.

:smh:

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #637: January 16, 2012, 11:44:17 AM »
And weren't there about 4 or 5 people living in the whole stinking area?  Not counting the street people holed up in the abandoned warehouses, maybe 20 if you count them too.

Almost no resistance from residents, it was the club owners, and they got a sweetheart deal from the city council to relocate.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #638: January 16, 2012, 11:50:15 AM »
I would argue that most of the time DC blows cash on stuff there isn't the opportunity for good returns that exist with this project.  If you mean that in theory, if the money were spent with the utmost of efficiency, timing and for the greatest impact, then yeah, I'm sure it could have been spent better.  But that's a theoreticall what-if that is pretty far from what anyone could expect.

Not much point in debating what could have been  bottom line is that if it was a good deal for the city, then MLB would have built it themselves.  Pollin doubled the value of his franchises and got a massive tax write off by building Verizon Center; Cooke turned the Skins into one of the top three most valuable teams in the world by building Fed Ex.  But the council still got duped into giving corporate welfare to MLB.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #639: January 16, 2012, 12:01:28 PM »
Of course we'll never know where development might have headed, but I don't think there is any doubt that the ballpark location jump started the whole rebuilding process in that area.  Property values shot up immediately, along with the concurrent increase in property taxes.

It would be interesting to hear JD's take on the impact of the ballpark on the whole area. 

Actually, with the massive expansion of the Navy Yard and the arrival of the Dept of Transportation, the area was already set to undergo transformation, which it did with office buildings to house associated contractors and the like. That the area changed more into an office park than a nightspot underscores the mostly wasted transformative opportunity that the ballpark could've represented elsewhere.  In point of fact, DC has enough big nightspots; the area could use a handful of bar/grills and such, but it's no tragedy if the place ends up more like Rosslyn than Clarendon.

Offline Gleason2

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #640: January 16, 2012, 01:37:24 PM »
If you spent your paycheck on lottery tickets and won the jackpot would that have been the smart move?

I think that your lottery ticket analogy describes what the Cubs did vis-a-vis Soriano.  The Nats were the party that decided not to purchase the lottery ticket.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #641: January 16, 2012, 01:40:18 PM »
I think that your lottery ticket analogy describes what the Cubs did vis-a-vis Soriano.  The Nats were the party that decided not to purchase the lottery ticket.

Drafting is the definition of lottery tickets.

Offline Gleason2

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #642: January 16, 2012, 01:42:56 PM »
Drafting is the definition of lottery tickets.

But the Nats didn't spend the equivalent of their paycheck on the draft choice.  They would have spent it on Soriano if they had tried to keep him.  I can't believe that anyone now thinks that having signed him to 7 years (or more) would have been a good move.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #643: January 16, 2012, 01:51:59 PM »
I think that your lottery ticket analogy describes what the Cubs did vis-a-vis Soriano.  The Nats were the party that decided not to purchase the lottery ticket.

The Cubs move is irrelevant because Bowden had already screwed up by failing to trade Soriano.  It was clear that he wasn't going to re sign here, so we should have traded him before the deadline when his value was equal to a third of a season for a 40/40 player (not many of those around) plus the two compensation picks, but all we got were the picks.  Worked out in the end but very poor move strategically.

Online blue911

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #644: January 16, 2012, 01:59:07 PM »
The Cubs move is irrelevant because Bowden had already screwed up by failing to trade Soriano.  It was clear that he wasn't going to re sign here, so we should have traded him before the deadline when his value was equal to a third of a season for a 40/40 player (not many of those around) plus the two compensation picks, but all we got were the picks.  Worked out in the end but very poor move strategically.

The Nats wouldn't have received any compensation picks if they traded him.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #645: January 16, 2012, 02:32:52 PM »
Depends what you mean by "living"...I know some people who spent a very large amount of time at Nation, but I'm not sure that qualifies as living.  But as for bona fide official residents, were there any?  I thought it was all businesses.

And weren't there about 4 or 5 people living in the whole stinking area?  Not counting the street people holed up in the abandoned warehouses, maybe 20 if you count them too.


Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #646: January 16, 2012, 02:38:05 PM »
The Nats wouldn't have received any compensation picks if they traded him.

Right, but the team receiving him via trade would have which is why he was worth more than the two picks.

Offline tomterp

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #647: January 16, 2012, 02:51:17 PM »
Depends what you mean by "living"...I know some people who spent a very large amount of time at Nation, but I'm not sure that qualifies as living.  But as for bona fide official residents, were there any?  I thought it was all businesses.

There was that one guy who had renovated a townhouse and lived alone in it.  One guy, in one townhouse, along a blighted block.  I credit his courage but question his sanity.

I was just guessing there were a few others somewhere.  Not really sure.  Mindfact, I guess.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #648: January 16, 2012, 02:52:40 PM »
There was that one guy who had renovated a townhouse and lived alone in it.  One guy, in one townhouse, along a blighted block.  I credit his courage but question his sanity.

So, you're saying I shouldn't buy a block in Congress Heights and start the Restoration Hardware-flavored renovations?

Offline tomterp

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Re: Define Natitude: What if it goes badly??!?!?!?
« Reply #649: January 16, 2012, 02:54:30 PM »
So, you're saying I shouldn't buy a block in Congress Heights and start the Restoration Hardware-flavored renovations?

Oh sure, if you want a room with some of the best views in Washington, go for it.