Author Topic: Define Natitude  (Read 45782 times)

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Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #350: December 22, 2011, 09:23:54 AM »
Your second statement contradicts your first  statement. 

Losing three guys in upper management in three separate ugly manners is not a good thing no matter how you spin it. 

I never said it was good. I'm saying it wasn't on ownership that Bowden and Riggleman left. And I don't subscribe to the premise that the organization is in disarray. RIzzo and Davey are significantly superior to Bowden and Riggleman and the team is winning more games.  It's not unique to the Nats if the GM and Manager want things that owners won't/can't give them.

Now if Rizzo and Davey leave because they feel they can't get what they want/need (which I have never heard from either of them) then we'll have a real problem.

At this stage, spending on Free Agency is not that big of a deal to me. I am much more concerned with keeping our home grown talent here in DC. If the Zimmermans and Strasburgs of the world end up walking at the end of their contracts because ownership refuses to pay to keep them, then yeah, that will pretty much be the ultimate dagger for me.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #351: December 22, 2011, 09:25:33 AM »
At this stage, spending on Free Agency is not that big of a deal to me. I am much more concerned with keeping our home grown talent here in DC. If the Zimmermans and Strasburgs of the world ending up walking at the end of their contracts because ownership refuses to pay to keep them, then yeah, that will pretty much be the ultimate dagger for me.

So you'd be content with being third or fourth place?

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #352: December 22, 2011, 09:26:46 AM »
If Rizzo is forced out for outing ownership's lack of willingness to spend or for pushing back too hard against their cheapness, then the scenario PowerBoater laid out looks a lot closer to real life.

That scenario already happened; although I do expect the turmoil to continue indefinitely.

Offline PebbleBall

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #353: December 22, 2011, 09:28:54 AM »
No one has addressed the logical flaw that the MASN money hasn't changed yet and isn't guaranteed to do so. Or the fact that they could sign Prince and Cespedes.

Actually it is guaranteed to do so, unless you want to cling to the barest technicality for the sake of arguing.  It's part of the original deal, now that it's been five years they have a reset and can renegotiate with Angelos.  If they can't agree to something, it goes to arbitration, and Angelos would want to win arbitration, so it's not like he's going to argue for the $29 million they're currently getting when it's so far out of whack with the other deals in baseball.  So it's not a question of whether the money's changing, it's a question of how much.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #354: December 22, 2011, 09:29:47 AM »
So you'd be content with being third or fourth place?


Ridiculous - of course not. High priced free agents guarantee nothing.

I'd much rather have a core of home grown talent and subsidize that with free agents, than a team full of over priced mercenaries that can never live up to their contract.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #355: December 22, 2011, 09:31:11 AM »
But you're assuming Angelos and MASN know that the current cable agreements are going to hold indefinitely, which may or may not be the case.  If MASN is ever not a "core component" of the cable package (meaning it's a la carte like the NFL network on some providers) you can say goodbye to depending on that money.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #356: December 22, 2011, 09:31:45 AM »
Ridiculous - of course not. High priced free agents guarantee nothing.

Neither do prospects.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #357: December 22, 2011, 09:32:35 AM »
But you're assuming Angelos and MASN know that the current cable agreements are going to hold indefinitely, which may or may not be the case.  If MASN is ever not a "core component" of the cable package (meaning it's a la carte like the NFL network on some providers) you can say goodbye to depending on that money.

I'm curious, where is MASN getting their revenue? They have no programming other than the games and it's not like viewership is anything to write home about.

Offline blue911

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #358: December 22, 2011, 09:33:05 AM »
I never said it was good. I'm saying it wasn't on ownership that Bowden and Riggleman left. And I don't subscribe to the premise that the organization is in disarray. RIzzo and Davey are significantly superior to Bowden and Riggleman and the team is winning more games.  It's not unique to the Nats if the GM and Manager want things that owners won't/can't give them.

Now if Rizzo and Davey leave because they feel they can't get what they want/need (which I have never heard from either of them) then we'll have a real problem.

At this stage, spending on Free Agency is not that big of a deal to me. I am much more concerned with keeping our home grown talent here in DC. If the Zimmermans and Strasburgs of the world ending up walking at the end of their contracts because ownership refuses to pay to keep them, then yeah, that will pretty much be the ultimate dagger for me.

Davey will leave anyway. His whole history is one of picking fights with ownership (or in the case of LA, Kevin Malone). He doesn't give a crap about time tables or two year plans or any of that crap. He's paid to win games and develop players at the major league level. He's going to nag if he feels that the team is a few pieces away and ownership balks. He's going to nag if he doesn't get the young guys (Bryce Harper) who he feels are ready. He isn't Buck (I'm not here to babysit) Showalter, he honestly believes he can make players better. Why do you think he does all the Norman Vincent Peale stuff? And he certainly isn't a Manny Acta,Jim Riggleman type that'll simply mouth the company line if he doesn't believe it.

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #359: December 22, 2011, 09:36:10 AM »
Selig handpicked the Lerners.  And he handpicked them because he compensates for being the puppet of the mega-payroll teams by lording over everybody else and instituting insane draft bonus rules to attack the disparity elephant in the room with a fly swatter.  But this is all beside the point.  Ted's pretty old, it probably won't be too long before we find out that Mark is actually a Snyderlike megalomaniac.

Yep, happened in my OOTP game, it was glorious.

I've always had a feeling Mark is going to go on a massive spending spree when Ted passes on.

Same.

Taiwanese whores don't play MLB though.

Nice.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #360: December 22, 2011, 09:36:44 AM »
Neither do prospects.

I'm not sure I'm following you, the core guys I'm talking about Zim, Storen, Espinosa, Strasburg, etc, aren't prospects anymore. At least not in the sense that I'm referring to.

Offline PebbleBall

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #361: December 22, 2011, 09:37:33 AM »
But you're assuming Angelos and MASN know that the current cable agreements are going to hold indefinitely, which may or may not be the case.  If MASN is ever not a "core component" of the cable package (meaning it's a la carte like the NFL network on some providers) you can say goodbye to depending on that money.

That's all part of the negotiation.  My only point was that the talks between the Nationals and MASN are going to be about how big the increase is, not whether or not there will be one. 

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #362: December 22, 2011, 09:37:45 AM »
I never said it was good. I'm saying it wasn't on ownership that Bowden and Riggleman left. And I don't subscribe to the premise that the organization is in disarray. RIzzo and Davey are significantly superior to Bowden and Riggleman and the team is winning more games.  It's not unique to the Nats if the GM and Manager want things that owners won't/can't give them.

Now if Rizzo and Davey leave because they feel they can't get what they want/need (which I have never heard from either of them) then we'll have a real problem.

At this stage, spending on Free Agency is not that big of a deal to me. I am much more concerned with keeping our home grown talent here in DC. If the Zimmermans and Strasburgs of the world end up walking at the end of their contracts because ownership refuses to pay to keep them, then yeah, that will pretty much be the ultimate dagger for me.

The Lerner family is 100% responsible for the Bowden and Riggleman fiascos, it's their team, it's their show, these weren't acts of God, these things happened in the atmosphere that was created by ownership.  Bowden in particular was a scapegoat, Mark Lerner signed Smiley in a bar at two in the morning the day after buying the team, he was the guy dumb enough to write the check.

As far as Rizzo and DJ not going public with their concerns about ownership, what the heck do you think led to this whole discussion?  They certainly can't complain on the record, but Boz it's highly unlikely that Boz pulled this column out of the vapor.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #363: December 22, 2011, 09:38:03 AM »
I'm curious, where is MASN getting their revenue?

My understanding is they get $2/month from each cable subscriber as part of the "core programming" packages, hence my comment of that not being a guarantee unless those agreements hold indefinitely.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #364: December 22, 2011, 09:38:05 AM »
Davey will leave anyway. His whole history is one of picking fights with ownership (or in the case of LA, Kevin Malone). He doesn't give a crap about time tables or two year plans or any of that crap. He's paid to win games and develop players at the major league level. He's going to nag if he feels that the team is a few pieces away and ownership balks. He's going to nag if he doesn't get the young guys (Bryce Harper) who he feels are ready. He isn't Buck (I'm not here to babysit) Showalter, he honestly believes he can make players better. Why do you think he does all the Norman Vincent Peale stuff? And he certainly isn't a Manny Acta,Jim Riggleman type that'll simply mouth the company line if he doesn't believe it.

Yeah, love me some Davey

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #365: December 22, 2011, 09:39:13 AM »
That's all part of the negotiation.  My only point was that the talks between the Nationals and MASN are going to be about how big the increase is, not whether or not there will be one. 

Sure, but that's assuming they've got an indefinite annuity stream from cable providers.  If that's not true would anyone outside of hardcore sports fans pay for MASN?

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #366: December 22, 2011, 09:39:46 AM »
My understanding is they get $2/month from each cable subscriber as part of the "core programming" packages, hence my comment of that not being a guarantee unless those agreements hold indefinitely.


Aw, of course, thank you

Offline PebbleBall

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #367: December 22, 2011, 09:42:37 AM »
Sure, but that's assuming they've got an indefinite annuity stream from cable providers.  If that's not true would anyone outside of hardcore sports fans pay for MASN?

The reason for the reset is that the Nationals are entitled to "market value" as part of their contract with MASN, not a value based on MASN's own comfort level or long term security.  In other words, that's their problem.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #368: December 22, 2011, 09:44:09 AM »
Sure, but that's assuming they've got an indefinite annuity stream from cable providers.  If that's not true would anyone outside of hardcore sports fans pay for MASN?

Based on the mega contracts signed by other teams, I'd say that the cable companies don't expect change anytime soon.  In any case the money owed to the Nats could be tied to the number of subscribers.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #369: December 22, 2011, 09:46:16 AM »
The Lerner family is 100% responsible for the Bowden and Riggleman fiascos, it's their team, it's their show, these weren't acts of God, these things happened in the atmosphere that was created by ownership.  Bowden in particular was a scapegoat, Mark Lerner signed Smiley in a bar at two in the morning the day after buying the team, he was the guy dumb enough to write the check.

As far as Rizzo and DJ not going public with their concerns about ownership, what the heck do you think led to this whole discussion?  They certainly can't complain on the record, but Boz it's highly unlikely that Boz pulled this column out of the vapor.

Not everything has direct correlation. "The Buck Stops Here" is usually just a saying. I believe Kasten left specifically because of the Lerners, Bowden and Riggleman did not.

And where are you getting this stuff about Davey and Rizzo not complaining in public? I didn't say anything like that. I think they are in cahoots and put Boz up to this, I said as much.

I was responding to the idea that the organization is in disarray, I don't believe that it is. Yet.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #370: December 22, 2011, 09:47:55 AM »
I was responding to the idea that the organization is in disarray, I don't believe that it is. Yet.

I agree with this - it's not at that point yet.  But if Rizzo is forced out and then Davey quits, the Lerners will have to bring in much less qualified and talented people to take their places.

Offline blue911

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Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #372: December 22, 2011, 09:49:32 AM »
I agree with this - it's not at that point yet.  But if Rizzo is forced out and then Davey quits, the Lerners will have to bring in much less qualified and talented people to take their places.

Yep, I'm totally with you there. Mostly with Rizzo, because everyone knows that Davey is a short term answer. Hopefully the Boz article is a shot across the bow and not a sign of real dissent with Rizzo.

We'll find out soon enough I guess.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #373: December 22, 2011, 09:50:24 AM »
The reason for the reset is that the Nationals are entitled to "market value" as part of their contract with MASN, not a value based on MASN's own comfort level or long term security.  In other words, that's their problem.

But is there any value, at all, if there aren't subscribers?

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Define Natitude
« Reply #374: December 22, 2011, 09:53:03 AM »
But is there any value, at all, if there aren't subscribers?

Right, that was my next question, isn't there some big brouhaha about not paying the additional $2 per subscriber anymore?