Author Topic: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways  (Read 1345 times)

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Offline Kevrock

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #25: September 30, 2011, 08:25:14 PM »
It sounds like Francona wanted out and it isn't the Sox organization pushing him out.

Quote from: mlb.com
"We met with Terry Francona, Theo Epstein and Ben Cherington Friday morning to discuss the 2011 season, ways to improve the club in the future, and Tito's status," Red Sox owners John Henry, Tom Werner and Larry Lucchino said in a joint statement. "During the meeting, Tito, Theo and Ben agreed that the Red Sox would benefit from an improved clubhouse culture and higher standards in several areas. Tito said that after eight years here he was frustrated by his difficulty making an impact with the players, that a different voice was needed, and that it was time for him to move on. After taking time to reflect on Tito's sentiments, we agreed that it was best for the Red Sox not to exercise the option years on his contract.

"We have enormous respect, admiration and appreciation for Tito and the job that he did for eight years, including two World Series championship seasons and five playoff appearances. His poise during the 2004 postseason was a key factor in the greatest comeback in baseball history, and his place in Red Sox history will never be forgotten. We wish him only the best going forward."


http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110929&content_id=25389042&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #26: September 30, 2011, 08:33:07 PM »
I only heard part of Tito's presser driving home from dinner.  He painted it as kind of a mutual decision - that as he discussed some of the changes that needed to go on with the team, he felt that they would be better off with someone new to lead them.  Sounds like the veterans basically stopped listening to him and engaged in bad behavior that he could not control.

There was the Hick White Pitching Clique - Beckett, Lackey, and Lester - along with occasionally Varitek.  Many stories about pitchers having beers in the clubhouse during games on days they were not pitching.  Youkilis apparently was a little to free with expressing his views on things while he hung around rehabbing.  He was openly critical last year of Ellsbury going off to Arizona to rehab rather than being with the team, but Youk's over-the-top competitive attitude was pretty off putting and undermined Ellsbury so much in the clubhouse that Ellsbury would only confide in Jed Lowrie.   

Francona said that the team was not reacting the way he wanted to his leadership, without fingering any individual.

As for candidates there, weei (team radio station) speculates most are AAA /bench coach types - Dave Martinez, DeMarlo Hale, Ryne Sandberg, Torry Lovullo, John Gibbons (former Toronto Mgr who is the bench coach in KC), Tim Bogar (current 3B coach), with Valentine being the only prominent retread.   Francona, on the other hand, makes sense for ChiSox, I think.  I think he is better for an AL team than the NL.  In the AL, it is more about season managing than in game moves.  Until this year, Francona was known for his ability to keep his clubhouse together. 

I'm beginning to think John Lackey is a carcinogen.

Online tomterp

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #27: September 30, 2011, 08:36:42 PM »
I don't like him as a fit for the Nationals. I don't intend this as a knock against him, I never had anything against him, but he shouldn't be managing a team like the Nats. The Chicago teams work, although he does feel like much more of an AL manager than an NL manager.

If he's such a fantastic manager than he should relish the opportunity to go to war with a $65m opening day payroll.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #28: September 30, 2011, 08:44:45 PM »
I'm not a Tito basher and would have liked him back.  Theo I'm more inclined to knock, and I'd love to see Newt Lackey (I divorce my wife while she's in treatment for cancer) be banned from baseball by Selig in the best interest of the game.  I'll always admire Tito for the way he managed in 2007 down the stretch.  Inserting Ellsbury for Crisp in the line up, keeping his rotation on regular rest in the ALCS, and other good judgments that were neither the automatic stand pat nor the roll the dice change for the sake of change moves.  Also, in 2004, he used defensive substitutions down the stretch brilliantly.  I more or less feel the team was structured improperly and had a bad collection of personalities.  That I lay on the GM.

Offline imref

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #29: September 30, 2011, 09:26:33 PM »
Peter Gammons thinks Bobby Valentine is the likely choice, but that they may call Seattle and LA about the availability of Wedge and Mattingly (Wedge has ties to Boston).  He also said they might call Pinella and Torre.  He thinks they go with a "name" manager.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #30: September 30, 2011, 09:28:17 PM »
Peter Gammons thinks Bobby Valentine is the likely choice, but that they may call Seattle and LA about the availability of Wedge and Mattingly (Wedge has ties to Boston).  He also said they might call Pinella and Torre.  He thinks they go with a "name" manager.

Bobby V + Boston fans/media will be amusing to watch

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #31: September 30, 2011, 09:42:04 PM »
Wedge never played for the Red Sox, but he came through their system to AAA until the BJs grabbed him in the expansion draft, I think.   

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #32: September 30, 2011, 09:54:55 PM »
...until the BJs grabbed him...

Happens to the best of us...

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #33: September 30, 2011, 10:20:14 PM »
@tomterp he's not a fantastic manager, that's the point... He's good with players and the media but his game management is kinda crappy.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #34: October 01, 2011, 09:48:57 AM »
@tomterp he's not a fantastic manager, that's the point... He's good with players and the media but his game management is kinda crappy.

your sarcasm detector was low last night. 

As for his game managing, there is regular season Tito and playoff Tito.  Regular season Tito was very much "let it ride with the line up, let's keep the bullpen in set usage patterns, let's keep the players happy."  that paid off when Dustin Pedroia started his career hitting poorly for 150 - 170 PAs and when he took care of not abusing Papelbon's bad shoulder for 6 years.  It was frustrating to watch continued faith in clearly declined players like JD Drew.   Playoff Tito was much more quick with the hook, willing to sub out starting players for defense, take line up risks, and generally less deferential / willing to step on toes.  You saw some of that the last two weeks, not with much success, when he'd yank starters with leads and less than 5 IP, the Lavarnway starts in Baltimore, trying to get Crawford going and acknowledging AG's 2d half power decline by shifting their slots.  Almost none of this worked, and it seemed like rearranging the chairs on the Titanic, but it was the same approach he used in 2004, 2007, and 2008 for a lot of success.  In some ways, he managed a bit like Davey Johnson in terms of season-long view. 

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #35: October 01, 2011, 11:06:12 AM »
I'm not saying that I wouldn't like Rizzo to get him but I am wondering how he would transition to the NL because it takes a lot more strategy then managing in the AL.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #36: October 01, 2011, 11:54:51 AM »
He did manage the Phillies back in the day.

Offline welch

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #37: October 01, 2011, 12:12:38 PM »
I hope the Red Sox pick Valentine, because I dislike Boston.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #38: October 01, 2011, 03:55:34 PM »
I hope the Red Sox pick Valentine, because I dislike Boston.

I'm surprised there is talk of Mattingly.

BTW - in 2004, the runner up was Joe Maddon.

The thinking today is that, with clubhouse discipline being an issue, that a veteran coach who is an ex-player may be needed.  Hale is on the list, but since he was associated with Francona, the thinking is he would have trouble getting more respect from the pitchers and other problem children.

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #39: October 01, 2011, 05:28:10 PM »
To use a phrase Bill Simmons uses a lot, I'd make "a godfather offer" to Maddon if I were the Sox. Best manager in baseball, far and away.

Online tomterp

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #40: October 01, 2011, 06:28:32 PM »
To use a phrase Bill Simmons uses a lot, I'd make "a godfather offer" to Maddon if I were the Sox. Best manager in baseball, far and away.

I love Maddon where he is - he has the freedom to manage the way he wants to and can slay giants with what he's got.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #41: October 01, 2011, 08:00:46 PM »
To use a phrase Bill Simmons uses a lot, I'd make "a godfather offer" to Maddon if I were the Sox. Best manager in baseball, far and away.


He's under contract through next year

Offline imref

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #42: October 01, 2011, 08:03:45 PM »

He's under contract through next year


maybe the red sox can trade crawford back, and offer to pay the rest of his contract, in exchange for Maddon?

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #43: October 02, 2011, 08:02:29 AM »
I'd love us to get Maddon.

Red Sox going for Mattingly would crack me up.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #44: October 02, 2011, 01:33:47 PM »
Davy for a year, the Joe Maddon to take us to the promised land (once we extend Zim, Zim, Morse, Ramos, and Stras).

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #45: October 03, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »
It doesn't matter.  If they address the rotation and back-end of the bullpen as well as land a SS (Reyes probably), they could hire Riggleman and win 95-100 games next year.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #46: October 03, 2011, 01:46:51 PM »
Quote
It doesn't matter.  If they address the rotation and back-end of the bullpen as well as land a SS (Reyes probably), they could hire Riggleman and win 95-100 games next year.
I am completely confident if this team was a 105+ win team based on true talent, Riggleman would find a way to win 95 - 100 games.

Offline spidernat

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #47: October 11, 2011, 08:08:08 PM »
No need to start another thread so I thought we could discuss it here. Theo Epstein is about to sign with the Cubs, per ESPN.

Offline blue911

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #48: October 11, 2011, 08:11:51 PM »
I wonder if the Red Sox are going to make the Cubs take Lackey as compensation.

Offline spidernat

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Re: Red Sox, Francona Part Ways
« Reply #49: October 11, 2011, 08:15:27 PM »
I wonder if the Red Sox are going to make the Cubs take Lackey as compensation.

:lol: But the report says the Red Sox are entitled to compensation and will demand something significant.