2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch

[Evolution33]

Why do people on teams that currently or previously had losing records always get criticized for saying something positive about their team? 

[wpa2629]

Why do people on teams that currently or previously had losing records always get criticized for saying something positive about their team?  

Nats fans, we complain, therefore we are

Rizzo was probably operating on zero sleep in over 36 hours, he was punchy and thumping his chest. So what. So much better than the alternative.

Next time though, I would appreciate if Rizzo would don this outfit and say ...

They may take our O (Don't call us Natinals) but they will never take our FREEDOM!

[HalfSmokes]

Why do people on teams that currently or previously had losing records always get criticized for saying something positive about their team? 

because in this case it was somewhere between hoping and a flat out lie.  If he wants the benefit of the doubt, take the team to the playoffs a few times and he'll get it, until then, expect skepticism

[Evolution33]

because in this case it was somewhere between hoping and a flat out lie.  If he wants the benefit of the doubt, take the team to the playoffs a few times and he'll get it, until then, expect skepticism

Proof the Nats aren't the talk of the industry. I don't talk to many (any) front office people or scouts so I really wouldn't know, but I do see a lot of talk about Nats prospects and these last few signings in the media.

[HalfSmokes]

Proof the Nats aren't the talk of the industry. I don't talk to many (any) front office people or scouts so I really wouldn't know, but I do see a lot of talk about Nats prospects and these last few signings in the media.

and you saw those same guys in the media before we picked them. If he wants credit for scouting- find someone no one has heard of or someone over looked.

If you think these guys were below the radar scouting feats, explain why everyone else was hyping them too- Baseball america had all of our big 4 in their top 50 pre-draft.
 (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/draft/draft-preview/2011/2611794.html).

As far as development goes- none of them have played an inning yet. What this draft has shown more than anything is that the lerners are willing to spend big on draft picks

[JCA-CrystalCity]

The problem with Purke is that his stuff took such a big downturn this year after his stellar freshman year.  When you see that big a dropoff and hear rumblings about shoulder injuries teams will back off quickly and rightly so.  Shoulder problems are much worse than Tommy John.

What no one would answer with Purke was what was the real problem?  His agent released some basic info from the doctors earlier but no one knew for sure if there was something structurally wrong with his shoulder.  If not, what was truly causing the problems?  No one has definitively said anything about that.  All his agent would say is that structurally there was nothing wrong.  No one was allowed to see the reports.  Having that MRI makes me feel better although those things don't always find everything. 

Best case, there is nothing wrong structurally wrong and the rest and time off are just what he needed.  Worst case, there is something no one could find causing the problem and it recurs.   To me, it's worth the risk.  He has #1 or #2 upside when healthy. 

I'd rather risk it on Purke than watch Maya pitch. 

I think Kilgore reported that the Nats believe his shoulder injury this year involved muscle and not structural after the MRI.

[Evolution33]

and you saw those same guys in the media before we picked them. If he wants credit for scouting- find someone no one has heard of or someone over looked.

If you think these guys were below the radar scouting feats, explain why everyone else was hyping them too- Baseball america had all of our big 4 in their top 50 pre-draft.
 (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/draft/draft-preview/2011/2611794.html).

As far as development goes- none of them have played an inning yet. What this draft has shown more than anything is that the lerners are willing to spend big on draft picks

"This just solidifies us, to me, as one of the great scouting and player development organizations in baseball," Rizzo told the Washington Post. "We are the talk of the industry."

The bolded word is important.

[PANatsFan]

and you saw those same guys in the media before we picked them. If he wants credit for scouting- find someone no one has heard of or someone over looked.

If you think these guys were below the radar scouting feats, explain why everyone else was hyping them too- Baseball america had all of our big 4 in their top 50 pre-draft.
 (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/draft/draft-preview/2011/2611794.html).

As far as development goes- none of them have played an inning yet. What this draft has shown more than anything is that the lerners are willing to spend big on draft picks

A lot of teams passed on Rendon, and all teams passed on Purke at least 2 times. How is that not scouting?

[HalfSmokes]

A lot of teams passed on Rendon, and all teams passed on Purke at least 2 times. How is that not scouting?

Both were health concerns, Rizzo is yet to be borne out on either. Purke especially was health + signability. Rizzo was given the budget to get it done and he went out and got them, but drafting guys on a baseball america pre-draft top list isn't exactly pulling Pujols in the 13th round. Maybe Rizzo got a guy like that, but we won't know for at least a few years.

[hammondsnats]

A lot of teams passed on Rendon, and all teams passed on Purke at least 2 times. How is that not scouting?

i know what you're saying - in that we did our homework (medical, performance, makeup, talent, etc) - but i think what halfsmokes is saying is, tha these two were pretty much known quantities ... the scouting department didn't have to go to some small town in wisconsin to find the next Jordan Zimmermann.

[HalfSmokes]

i know what you're saying - in that we did our homework (medical, performance, makeup, talent, etc) - but i think what halfsmokes is saying is, tha these two were pretty much known quantities ... the scouting department didn't have to go to some small town in wisconsin to find the next Jordan Zimmermann.

pretty much

[Evolution33]

i know what you're saying - in that we did our homework (medical, performance, makeup, talent, etc) - but i think what halfsmokes is saying is, tha these two were pretty much known quantities ... the scouting department didn't have to go to some small town in wisconsin to find the next Jordan Zimmermann.

Baseball America knew who he was as well. It would take a damn lot of work by a scouting department to find a player that no one knew of. Even when it does happen with a guy like Albert Pujols the team that took him gets crticized for lucking into him because they passed on him 12 times as well. Someone somewhere in some media outlet has heard of all of these players. The scouting part is watching them and deciding if they are worth the money a team is about to commit to them. That all has yet to be proven, but people that want to crticize Rizzo for every little thing will. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last that one of his comments is taken completely out of context and too big a deal made out of it.

[PANatsFan]

i know what you're saying - in that we did our homework (medical, performance, makeup, talent, etc) - but i think what halfsmokes is saying is, tha these two were pretty much known quantities ... the scouting department didn't have to go to some small town in wisconsin to find the next Jordan Zimmermann.

yep

[Rasta]

Well he did find Jordan Zimmermann and has developed quite a few guys that weren't hyped. 

[hammondsnats]

Baseball America knew who he was as well. It would take a damn lot of work by a scouting department to find a player that no one knew of. Even when it does happen with a guy like Albert Pujols the team that took him gets crticized for lucking into him because they passed on him 12 times as well. Someone somewhere in some media outlet has heard of all of these players. The scouting part is watching them and deciding if they are worth the money a team is about to commit to them. That all has yet to be proven, but people that want to crticize Rizzo for every little thing will. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last that one of his comments is taken completely out of context and too big a deal made out of it.

no crap sherlock.  but reports had that the nats were hot after JZ from the get go and continued their pursuit.  I think the Nats also had him ranked higher on their draft boards than other teams. 

Look I was just making a point.  There are plenty of other examples I could use.  but rendon/purke received much more publicity. 

[HalfSmokes]

Baseball America knew who he was as well. It would take a damn lot of work by a scouting department to find a player that no one knew of. Even when it does happen with a guy like Albert Pujols the team that took him gets crticized for lucking into him because they passed on him 12 times as well. Someone somewhere in some media outlet has heard of all of these players. The scouting part is watching them and deciding if they are worth the money a team is about to commit to them. That all has yet to be proven, but people that want to crticize Rizzo for every little thing will. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last that one of his comments is taken completely out of context and too big a deal made out of it.

people who critize a team for passing on a brady or a pujols before taking him are idiots- they got their guy at a bargain knowing they could pass. There is also a difference between a guy a site like BA has a one line blurb and a top 50 player. 

[Glockypoo]

people who critize a team for passing on a brady or a pujols before taking him are idiots- they got their guy at a bargain knowing they could pass. There is also a difference between a guy a site like BA has a one line blurb and a top 50 player. 

Yet you refuse to give credit to a GM for finding a diamond in the rough in free agency.

[Slateman]

Why do people on teams that currently or previously had losing records always get criticized for saying something positive about their team? 

Usually its the way in which the express that positivity. Most fans are rather obnoxious about it. I can't tell you how many stupid people I've heard claiming the Redskins are going to be great this year. Defense is top 5. Beck is the next Mark Mark Rypien. Hightower is a faster John Riggins. They gonna put together a bunch of no names and make the next Hogs.

Let's just be honest. The Nats are an okay ball club right now and their fan base reflects that. They have a ton of potential right now, but very little of it is proven. Time will tell.

[HalfSmokes]

Yet you refuse to give credit to a GM for finding a diamond in the rough in free agency.

what diamond are you referring to? Nix is a great find, but Marquis, LaRoche, Werth, Pudge, and the rest of the filler that passes though balance that one out

[Glockypoo]

what diamond are you referring to?

Matty Capps.

[RD]

First, I like the signings and have no problem with they guys we drafted, however,

really? You drafted guys that were on every radar and haven't developed any of them yet- how in the hell does it solidify your scouting and player development reputation

Im not sure what argument you are trying to make here.

In a later post you mention that all four were ranked by BA as highly rated prospects. So what? That is precisely the point! We landed 4 elite talents despite having those picks spread out throughout the first 100 picks. That is a coup! That is not something to knock or belittle or just ignore.

Rizzo is happy about the draft class. Theres nothing wrong with stating that. And guess what - he is right. The Nationals are the talk of the industry. Everyone is talking about the talent they accumulated here.

There were things that the Nats had nothign to do with. Luck and circumstance had something to do with the players being available. However, that does not mean you ignore the fact that we were able to add them all. There was a level of risk involved with each pick, but we did our homework and found out everything we could and got them signed. Goodwin had a legitimate shot of going to college. Purke was a risk because of the possibility in going back to school and potential health concerns. EVERYONE said he would not sign. That unless we gave him $6mill, he was going back to school. Well, we got the work done to check out his shoulder and got the contract done, and it was less than $6mill. All of this is to be applauded, not taken for granted. There were plenty of other teams that had the chance to be aggressive and go after the talent, and didn't. Again, this should not be taken for granted. Its a great thing we have an aggressive FO in regards to the draft.

Also, as for the development portion, its not just this. We are the talk of the industry in terms of talent coming up. We have a definite top 10 system and thats turned around in 2/3 years. Guys like Zimmermann, Storen, and Espinosa are helping the big club. Destin Hood is coming along. Brad Peacock has come along. We did a great job with Cole and Ray last year. This team is the talk of the industry for many reasons - this draft, as Rizzo mentions, solidifies it. Its another reason we are being talked about.

[HalfSmokes]

Im not sure what argument you are trying to make here.

In a later post you mention that all four were ranked by BA as highly rated prospects. So what? That is precisely the point! We landed 4 elite talents despite having those picks spread out throughout the first 100 picks. That is a coup! That is not something to knock or belittle or just ignore.

Rizzo is happy about the draft class. Theres nothing wrong with stating that. And guess what - he is right. The Nationals are the talk of the industry. Everyone is talking about the talent they accumulated here.

There were things that the Nats had nothign to do with. Luck and circumstance had something to do with the players being available. However, that does not mean you ignore the fact that we were able to add them all. There was a level of risk involved with each pick, but we did our homework and found out everything we could and got them signed. Goodwin had a legitimate shot of going to college. Purke was a risk because of the possibility in going back to school and potential health concerns. EVERYONE said he would not sign. That unless we gave him $6mill, he was going back to school. Well, we got the work done to check out his shoulder and got the contract done, and it was less than $6mill. All of this is to be applauded, not taken for granted. There were plenty of other teams that had the chance to be aggressive and go after the talent, and didn't. Again, this should not be taken for granted. Its a great thing we have an aggressive FO in regards to the draft.

Also, as for the development portion, its not just this. We are the talk of the industry in terms of talent coming up. We have a definite top 10 system and thats turned around in 2/3 years. Guys like Zimmermann, Storen, and Espinosa are helping the big club. Destin Hood is coming along. Brad Peacock has come along. We did a great job with Cole and Ray last year. This team is the talk of the industry for many reasons - this draft, as Rizzo mentions, solidifies it. Its another reason we are being talked about.

picking off of a ba top list isn't so much scouting as having a large budget- I'm sure the padres would love to have the flexibility to give a third rounder 4.15 million.

As far as development- you're correct, we have guys come up through the system and play- I fail to see how that differentiates us from the rest of baseball.  

[Rasta]

Brad Peacock, Brad Meyers, Derek Norris, Danny Espinosa, Cole Kimball, Lombardozzi. 

None of those guys were top 50 guys.  The miss rate on the draft is astronomical.  Rizzo ain't perfect but he surely has us in a better position than we were before he took over.  I just don't get the extreme hate on the guy.  He's done quite a few things I disagree with and there are other GM's I would take over him but how many of those guys would have taken this job?  Especially where we were at when he took over. 

[RD]

i know what you're saying - in that we did our homework (medical, performance, makeup, talent, etc) - but i think what halfsmokes is saying is, tha these two were pretty much known quantities ... the scouting department didn't have to go to some small town in wisconsin to find the next Jordan Zimmermann.

If thats his stance, it's a poor one to take.

So developing and scouting is only praised when you find someone nobody knew of?

Thats impossible. With the number of showcases and tournaments and media coverage, there aren't many people who are unknown. The one or two that may fall through the cracks are not the only people a system should be praised for selecting or developing. We just had a kid from freaking Wyoming selected in the first round. Everyone knew about him. Next year, a kid from the hotbed of Spanish Fork, UT will be af irst rounder(Kayden Porter).

Seeing the talent is one thing. Being able to bring it in to your ogranization is another. Developing it into a big leaguer is yet another part of the scouting department. There are many things that go into the area of scouting and development - not just finding some kid from a random small town or developing a late round pick.

[Rasta]

And FTR, I think Rizzo's comments were over the top and unnecessary but I just don't see the need to turn this into another Rizzo debate.   That ground was well covered by S37