Author Topic: Space. The Final Frontier.  (Read 10888 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 19863
  • Bench Harper, Free Souza
Re: Re: Fielder.
« Reply #125: January 20, 2012, 11:48:12 AM »
it's okay linty,  slateman is obviously one of those people that isn't happy unless things are blowing up.  I loved that DS9 wasn't flat and one dimensional as he would seem to prefer.  In fact out of the entire show I can only think of one episode that was truly awful.

To each their own :cheers:

(but my own is better :mg: )

Not necessarily. Things didn't have to blow up in BSG for it to be good. But it was dark. It was on edge.

I just felt DS9 took the Disney way out. That could have been a long, hard fought war that was gruesome and costly, both physically and emotionally. But there are really only a couple episodes that I thought it was truly a war. Siege at AR 558 and when Dax is killed.

Its still my favorite Trek series. But, IMO, it had a chance to surpass the Sci Fi genre much in the way that BSG did. Good writing and a couple of gambles by the producers could have paid off. War, hatred, revenge, racism ... all of these could have been utilized much more effectively.

TNG had them sitting in saloons with VR characters. Still a great series.


TNG was different though. It was hopeful. It was about exploration.

DS9 wasn't.

I'm sorry but nats fans should be pretty irate if they don't land Fielder (or somehow magically pull off another trade to improve the o).  The offense was bad last year and they haven't done anything to improve it this offseason.   

I already went on a rant on this. They don't make a legitimate attempt at Fielder, they're telling me that they aren't going to win for two years. We're still on the two year plan.

Offline The Chief

  • Posts: 29995
    • http://www.wnff.net
Re: Re: Fielder.
« Reply #126: January 20, 2012, 11:54:59 AM »
I just felt DS9 took the Disney way out. That could have been a long, hard fought war that was gruesome and costly, both physically and emotionally. But there are really only a couple episodes that I thought it was truly a war. Siege at AR 558 and when Dax is killed.

You either have a terrible memory or just haven't watched the show recently.  To boil it down to just those two episodes and say the rest was Disney is ridiculous.  But whatever, we clearly aren't going to agree, so moving on...


Offline CatsEye

  • Posts: 1656
  • Very weird season -Creepy - What....
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #128: January 20, 2012, 12:04:29 PM »
i'm reminded of "ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE."

 Memorable message - amazing movie - don't forget the monoliths-awesome..... :worship:

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 19863
  • Bench Harper, Free Souza

Offline The Chief

  • Posts: 29995
    • http://www.wnff.net
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #130: January 20, 2012, 12:26:06 PM »
One final note - the first six episodes of season 6 and the final 9 or 10 episodes of season 7 are both war arcs.  That alone is ~16 episodes clearly focusing on various aspects of the war.  And that's just the easy ones to pick out.  Plenty of other war and pre-war episodes both during and prior to those sesaons.  So Slateman, sorry, but you're wrong (in my opinion, of course :razz: )

Yes I feel strongly about this, and yes I am a damn trek nerd :P

Offline The Chief

  • Posts: 29995
    • http://www.wnff.net
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #131: January 20, 2012, 12:33:19 PM »
On a more conciliatory note - Slateman (or anyone else qualified) - Voyager, yay or nay?  I've never watched the whole thing through, just a few episodes here and there back in my HS days.  Worth it?

Offline imref

  • Posts: 16392
  • Like my arm slot?
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #132: January 20, 2012, 12:41:49 PM »
you guys are so takei.

Offline The Chief

  • Posts: 29995
    • http://www.wnff.net
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #133: January 20, 2012, 12:43:30 PM »
Oh myyyyyyyyyyy


Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 19863
  • Bench Harper, Free Souza
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #134: January 20, 2012, 12:53:05 PM »
One final note - the first six episodes of season 6 and the final 9 or 10 episodes of season 7 are both war arcs.  That alone is ~16 episodes clearly focusing on various aspects of the war.  And that's just the easy ones to pick out.  Plenty of other war and pre-war episodes both during and prior to those sesaons.  So Slateman, sorry, but you're wrong (in my opinion, of course :razz: )

Yes I feel strongly about this, and yes I am a damn trek nerd :P

Look at everything after Sacrifice of Angels

Wedding, mirror universe, Ferengi, Bashir and his I'm so freaking smart, Morn, Runabout is shrunk, Worf trying to bond with his son that isnt' really a Klingon, taking on pirates (in the middle of the war?), Vic Fontaine, rouge starfleet cadets, Time vortex, time wormhole with a captain stranded a long time ago and then, finally, oh yea, there's a war going on. But the only time you really hear about it is when Sisko goes over the casualty list at the beginning of an episode.

The first six episodes of seaon 6 and the final 9 of season 7 should have been season 6. Maybe a couple of character building episodes. The wedding and ... the mirror universe is okay. The rest was filler garbage because the writers didn't know how to approach the topic of war. Because it had never been done in Star Trek before.

This is a station that is a stone's throw away from Cardassia and just happens to guard the only way in to the quadrant for the Dominion. And yet ... not even considered front lines. This was a war that was unheard of in Trek history. It simply hadn't happened. Not at this level or this scale. No one had seen fleet battles like this. No one had seen a ground battle before. Trek had never dealt with issues like PTSD, massive casualties, martial law and other things. The Federation had never been painted as anything other than a Utopia.

And, by your own admission, there are 16 episodes over the course of two seasons that deal with the single most important thing to happen in Star Trek history ... ever. The war effectively started in the middle of season 5 and there are, maybe, 20 episodes that deal with it in any depth. There are two that are actually gut wrenching and deal with real, emotional loss and agony.

Maybe they ran out of money. But I honestly believe that the writers just didn't think their audience would handle a dark storyline like that. Severely underestimated Trek fans in my mind. Or maybe I'm vastly over estimating them.

Offline Obed_Marsh

  • Posts: 7666
  • ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
    • Photos
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #135: January 20, 2012, 12:53:43 PM »
Worth it?

My least favorite. It has some moments, some of which can be skipped. It ends with a wimper but some Trek is better than no Trek.

Offline PC

  • Posts: 38525
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #136: January 20, 2012, 12:54:22 PM »
The Dominion story arc was the best of the entire franchise...and I loved me a Star Trek story arc.  It was also the longest and the only one that ebbed and flowed.  Imagine another story arc where the good guys lost as happened in this one.  They lost the Deep Space Nine space station for the first six episodes of season 6.  Nothing like that ever happened with another arc in the entire franchise.  Gene Roddenberry would have HATED the Dominion story arc.

...but Voyager was my favorite show of the Franchise.   :mg:

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 19863
  • Bench Harper, Free Souza
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #137: January 20, 2012, 12:56:50 PM »
On a more conciliatory note - Slateman (or anyone else qualified) - Voyager, yay or nay?  I've never watched the whole thing through, just a few episodes here and there back in my HS days.  Worth it?

Nay for the most part. It had its moments. "Message in a Bottle" is my favorite, simply because of Prometheus. And then when the mods came out for Bridge Commander to use it in the game .... it was epic.

It is kind of interesting to watch as the progress towards home. Take on the Borg only to discover that the Borg are actually afraid of a species somewhere else.

Equinox episodes were also interesting. Ends justifying the means and how well do those Federation ideals stand up when its pretty freaking hopeless.

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 19863
  • Bench Harper, Free Souza
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #138: January 20, 2012, 12:59:15 PM »
The Dominion story arc was the best of the entire franchise...and I loved me a Star Trek story arc.  It was also the longest and the only one that ebbed and flowed.  Imagine another story arc where the good guys lost as happened in this one.  They lost the Deep Space Nine space station for the first six episodes of season 6.  Nothing like that ever happened with another arc in the entire franchise.  Gene Roddenberry would have HATED the Dominion story arc.

...but Voyager was my favorite show of the Franchise.   :mg:

See I felt that it didn't flow. It started to ... and then ... stopped. They put the entire story line on hold for most of the season and part of the next season.

Roddenberry would have hated the way they did it. But he was all about social issues. If they had embraced that aspect, especially in the wake of Vietnam and shortly after the Gulf War, he would have appreciated it.

Offline PC

  • Posts: 38525
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #139: January 20, 2012, 01:13:33 PM »
See I felt that it didn't flow. It started to ... and then ... stopped. They put the entire story line on hold for most of the season and part of the next season.

Roddenberry would have hated the way they did it. But he was all about social issues. If they had embraced that aspect, especially in the wake of Vietnam and shortly after the Gulf War, he would have appreciated it.

The 6th season wasn't the ebbing and flowing.   The story arc started with the final episode of the 2nd season and ended with the final episode of the 7th season.  It ebbed and flowed through five seasons.  The Klingon Civil War arc (my second favorite arc) started at the 23rd episode of the first season and ended on the first episode of the 5th season.  That's probably the next longest but it didn't ebb and flow nearly as much.

And Roddenberry didn't like story arcs, period.   He didn't want events from one episode to "bleed into" another.  He wanted every episode to be completely self-contained.  The particular length of this arc he would have hated.  And think of all the things that happened in this arc.  My favorite DS9 episode is The Die is Cast and there was a lot of stuff that happened before that and after with this arc.

Offline The Chief

  • Posts: 29995
    • http://www.wnff.net
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #140: January 20, 2012, 01:39:05 PM »
The 6th season wasn't the ebbing and flowing.   The story arc started with the final episode of the 2nd season and ended with the final episode of the 7th season.  It ebbed and flowed through five seasons.  The Klingon Civil War arc (my second favorite arc) started at the 23rd episode of the first season and ended on the first episode of the 5th season.  That's probably the next longest but it didn't ebb and flow nearly as much.

This x1,000,000.  Complaining about seasons 6 and 7 is missing more than half of the picture - some of the great dominion episodes happened prior to the actual war.  The prison camp two-parter, for example.

Look at everything after Sacrifice of Angels

Wedding, mirror universe, Ferengi, Bashir and his I'm so freaking smart, Morn, Runabout is shrunk, Worf trying to bond with his son that isnt' really a Klingon, taking on pirates (in the middle of the war?), Vic Fontaine, rouge starfleet cadets, Time vortex, time wormhole with a captain stranded a long time ago and then, finally, oh yea, there's a war going on. But the only time you really hear about it is when Sisko goes over the casualty list at the beginning of an episode.

You're cherry picking.  I could do the same - Rocks and Shoals, In the Pale Moonlight, Waltz, One Little Ship, Honor Among Thieves, Change of Heart, Inquisition...  the list goes on -  and I'd have more episodes than you.  Besides, even the non-war-focused episodes were usually set against the backdrop of the war.  Do you just hate character development?  If every episode focused on the front lines it'd be a documentary, not a show.  It would also get stale really fast (nevermind budget constraints)

Quote
The first six episodes of seaon 6 and the final 9 of season 7 should have been season 6. Maybe a couple of character building episodes. The wedding and ... the mirror universe is okay. The rest was filler garbage because the writers didn't know how to approach the topic of war. Because it had never been done in Star Trek before.

The mirror episodes are pretty weak, I'll give you that, but they're just "mix up the characters with no lasting repercussions" episodes, so they still have their merits.  Other than that I feel like you're once again complaining about this not being a war documentary.  Plenty of the so-called "filler" episodes were great episodes, and most advanced the characters, war or not.

Quote
This is a station that is a stone's throw away from Cardassia and just happens to guard the only way in to the quadrant for the Dominion. And yet ... not even considered front lines.

You're just nitpicking now.  Might as well complain about the inconsistent size of the Defiant or say warp drive is unrealistic.  Besides, the Dominion had a non-aggression pact with Bajor and the wormhole was closed after "Sacrifice", so the station no longer held any especially significant strategic value.

Quote
This was a war that was unheard of in Trek history. It simply hadn't happened. Not at this level or this scale. No one had seen fleet battles like this. No one had seen a ground battle before. Trek had never dealt with issues like PTSD, massive casualties, martial law and other things. The Federation had never been painted as anything other than a Utopia.

Yes, this is true, and that's part of what makes DS9 great - it deals with all of these things.

Quote
And, by your own admission, there are 16 episodes over the course of two seasons that deal with the single most important thing to happen in Star Trek history ... ever. The war effectively started in the middle of season 5 and there are, maybe, 20 episodes that deal with it in any depth. There are two that are actually gut wrenching and deal with real, emotional loss and agony.

Yeah, I'm done with this for real after this post, because you clearly aren't listening.  I cited 16 easy episodes, I did NOT say they were the only ones - far from it.  To say that only two episodes in deal with real loss and agony again demonstrates you terrible and/or selective memory (or maybe you're just heartless :stir: )  And the war started long before mid-seasons 5.  Open hostilities began around that time, but the cold war goes all the way back to the end of season 2, and gets hot plenty of times in the intervening seasons.  Besides, what's wrong with seeing war from behind the lines too?  I guess we should just pretend that life doesn't go on during a war :shrug:

Quote
Maybe they ran out of money. But I honestly believe that the writers just didn't think their audience would handle a dark storyline like that. Severely underestimated Trek fans in my mind. Or maybe I'm vastly over estimating them.

I prefer not to second-guess the writers, but there is plenty of information from various sources (DS9 companion, interviews, etc.) on the Star Trek wiki at memory-alpha.org.  Great resource if you're into behind-the-scenes stuff.  I'd really like to get my hands on a copy of the DS9 companion but it's out of print and copies on Amazon are outrageously priced.  No e-versions, either :(

===

tl;dr - I'm not saying DS9 didn't have its flaws, but you're vastly undercrediting it, IMO.  The fact that you wish it were more like BSG says a lot to me about why we disagree so strongly on this.  As I said before, to each their own.  At least we agree on it being the best ;)

Offline Nathan

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 10557
  • Wow. Such warnings. Very baseball. Moderator Doge.
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #141: January 20, 2012, 02:39:57 PM »
Nathan why aren't you splitting this stuff? EARN your keep, man! :whip: :poke:

Screw you I was asleep.  Whose bright idea was it to merge Star Trek stuff with the legitimate space thread?  :poke:

Offline The Chief

  • Posts: 29995
    • http://www.wnff.net
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #142: January 20, 2012, 03:09:34 PM »
Whose idea was it to let a dinosaur in a trashcan run an intertubez web forum board?

Offline Nathan

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 10557
  • Wow. Such warnings. Very baseball. Moderator Doge.
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #143: January 20, 2012, 03:15:00 PM »
The Founders?  Species 8472? :shrug:

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 19863
  • Bench Harper, Free Souza
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #144: January 20, 2012, 05:23:27 PM »
Undercrediting it? I said it was my favorite one.

Offline cmdterps44

  • Posts: 15495
  • Future
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #145: January 20, 2012, 05:25:49 PM »
Wait. How does Star Trek / Fielder convo end up in a Space thread!

Offline The Chief

  • Posts: 29995
    • http://www.wnff.net
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #146: January 20, 2012, 05:33:33 PM »
I didn't think there was an actual star trek thread, aside from the one about the new movie a few years ago

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 19863
  • Bench Harper, Free Souza
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #147: January 20, 2012, 05:54:13 PM »
Wait. How does Star Trek / Fielder convo end up in a Space thread!

Dinosaur in a garbage can

Offline The Chief

  • Posts: 29995
    • http://www.wnff.net
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #148: January 20, 2012, 05:55:14 PM »
Asteroids are from space.  I'm a dinosaur.  You do the math.

Offline MarquisDeSade

  • Posts: 13447
  • The Truth.
Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #149: January 20, 2012, 05:56:15 PM »
Let's get back to discussing time travel.  I'm sure there are some overpaid administrivia agents that can tell us it doesn't exist.