Author Topic: Space. The Final Frontier.  (Read 15996 times)

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Offline The Chief

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #475: July 16, 2013, 08:47:06 AM »
Also on the Pluto thing, I had actually been saying for years prior to the decision that Pluto wasn't a planet.  The fact is that we had begun discovering many similar (one even bigger) icy Kuiper Belt objects that were similar to Pluto.  The issue this presents is simple.  We either would have had to have classified all of these new Kuiper Belt objects as planets or taken the new knowledge into account and corrected that Pluto wasn't actually a planet.  Additionally, Pluto orbits on a different plane from the eight planets and is much more eccentric than the orbits of the planets suggesting that it was not created in the same ilk as the planets.  It is likely a leftover building block of the early Solar System, much like the Asteroid Belt that Jupiter's gravity kept from forming into a planet.  There is a lot of research to suggest that Neptune has a similar effect on the Kuiper Belt objects.  Rocky planets likely cannot form in the presence of the massive gravitational fields produced by gas giants.

Everybody loves Pluto.  It should have been grandfathered in, simple as that.  Who cares if it's strictly accurate, science makes plenty of stupid exceptions with a wink and a nod.  Why not Pluto?

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #476: July 16, 2013, 08:56:41 AM »
Everybody loves Pluto.  It should have been grandfathered in, simple as that.  Who cares if it's strictly accurate, science makes plenty of stupid exceptions with a wink and a nod.  Why not Pluto?
I honestly wouldn't have had a problem with it being grandfathered in.  I love Pluto too.  I'm just saying that from a strictly scientific standpoint they got it right.

Also for all the credit Neil deGrasse Tyson gets for Pluto's demotion he's more of a supporter of the idea than the root cause.  He's among the most famous astrophysicists so his views on the issue are among the most well-heard but he's really only driving the getaway car.  If you want a better culprit go with Mike Brown of the IAU, who wrote a 2010 memoir called "How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming."  He's the one who is actually taking credit for it.  Tyson is only justifying it.

Offline The Chief

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #477: July 16, 2013, 09:08:26 AM »
I have no beef w/ Tyson and I don't disagree with any of the science behind the decision, but they could have just let it go.  This is a baseball forum, I'm sure I don't need to prattle on about the value of tradition ;)

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #478: July 16, 2013, 09:10:26 AM »
I have no beef w/ Tyson and I don't disagree with any of the science behind the decision, but they could have just let it go.  This is a baseball forum, I'm sure I don't need to prattle on about the value of tradition ;)
If you can conjure up the votes and I've finished my PhD in astronomy by then, I'll vote with ya and we'll get Pluto back :D

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #479: July 16, 2013, 09:30:44 AM »
Also, we should change this thread title since space may not be the final frontier anymore.  It's very possible we have a whole multiverse to explore now :D

Online Nathan

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #480: July 16, 2013, 03:17:30 PM »
But it's tradition!

Offline The Chief

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #481: July 16, 2013, 04:00:17 PM »
Just like blue punching you in the junk!

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #482: July 25, 2013, 09:54:23 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/kepler-space-telescope-nasa_n_3653455.html#slide=2396347

Kepler is all but dead.  It may still be useful in some facet but the massive search for exoplanets is probably over.  And, unfortunately, even if NASA were properly funded, Kepler orbits the Sun, not the Earth, and is 40 million miles away, a bit further than the distance to Mars.  We can't get to it to fix the wheels.

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #483: July 25, 2013, 10:40:01 PM »
:(

Instead of getting exciting news stories on the regular, we get depressing stories on how the space program is decreasing. :(


Offline mimontero88

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #485: July 27, 2013, 01:51:21 PM »
This is cool.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-earth-cassini-photos-20130722,0,1800495.story
Wow that is pretty awesome.  Earth barely looks bigger than a star from Saturn.  The fact that it looks so blue is pretty awesome though.  It really is a Pale Blue Dot.

Online Nathan

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #486: July 27, 2013, 02:16:30 PM »
The photos that show the Earth and the Moon are pretty cool too.

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #487: July 27, 2013, 03:03:04 PM »
The photos that show the Earth and the Moon are pretty cool too.
Greatest photo ever taken:


Before this, no one ever thought to draw the Earth with clouds.  That's how crazy just getting a different perspective can be.

Offline Coladar

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #488: July 28, 2013, 12:11:19 AM »
I honestly wouldn't have had a problem with it being grandfathered in.  I love Pluto too.  I'm just saying that from a strictly scientific standpoint they got it right.

Also for all the credit Neil deGrasse Tyson gets for Pluto's demotion he's more of a supporter of the idea than the root cause.  He's among the most famous astrophysicists so his views on the issue are among the most well-heard but he's really only driving the getaway car.  If you want a better culprit go with Mike Brown of the IAU, who wrote a 2010 memoir called "How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming."  He's the one who is actually taking credit for it.  Tyson is only justifying it.

A bit late to reply, but I would have said what Chief did - it should have been grandfathered in. Sedna and ilk clearly demonstrate Pluto isn't alone, and likely one of countless others. But there are three factors. First, Pluto is still special. It's discovery by Clyde Tombaugh (sp) was rather unique and amazing. No other KBO comes anywhere close to actually becoming the 8th 'planet', meaning, Pluto is unique in it's proximity to the sun. I strongly disagree with the IAU's assertion that Pluto hasn't 'cleared out it's neighborhood' because Charon's size is so close to Pluto. Charon is only 11% of the mass of Pluto - hardly a clear cut case for a binary system imo.

The KBOs probably are littering the outer reaches of the system, close by to one another, with strays close in size to the parent body common, and a vast majority of them not massive enough to have enough gravity to become somewhat round. Pluto... well, like I said with the 8th planet comment, Pluto is different, and applying any of the previous specifications to it is a stretch. Considering the historicity of Pluto, to demote it when it isn't cut and dry like other KBO's is just plain wrong.

There's the historical and cultural factor where generations learned of planet number nine.

But my main point of contention, and one which focuses more on Tyson, was the way it was done. I believe I said the decision harmed the reputation of astronomy greatly. It did so for the reasons mentioned above, the comical 'planet no longer a planet' situation. But more than anything - the IAU waited until the absolute end of the conference. What was it, like 90% of the voting body had left at that point (too lazy to look it up.) Bottom line, only a fraction of a fraction voted to demote Pluto. There was hardly a legitimate debate about it involving all the people who should have been involved. It was absurd and underhanded.

More than anything though, because of how they did it caused an extreme conflict amongst astronomers. When the news got wind, you had these details emerge along with astronomers infighting and commenting on how ridiculous the whole thing was, how much they disagreed with it, whatever. Something like Pluto, demoting a freaking planet, should have been a long process involving the entire voting body along with others so that a genuine consensus and agreement could have been reached. Instead the IAU came off, looking like fools and rapscallions with an agenda, making a significantly unpopular decision among the average joe, and causing embarrassment when the infighting and underhandedness was revealed and those who disagreed made their feelings known to the press.

All around pathetic and horribly handled. Tyson's casual dismissal and arrogant condescension to any who disagreed just added kindling to my dislike for the man as the face of modern astronomy. Even if you agreed 100% with the decision, a reasonable person would concede it was a disaster and a mistake to have been done the way it was. Likewise, this pales in comparison to idiocy like 'ice fishing on Europa' and wanting to 'kiss a Europan fish' or whatever it was he said.

Oh, one more bit - I was going to conclude that I don't care about the IAU's decision and that when New Horizons visits it in another couple years, we'll be looking at the ninth planet as far as I'm concerned. By the by, I know I've said this before, but New Horizons is going to be an amazing mission. Look up the best images we have of Pluto from Hubble - a tiny dot. Then imagine we've sent a probe all the way there, and will be getting data and images up close and personal. The final piece of a solar system tour begun with Voyager and the Venusian and Martian missions from the 60s-70s.

But NH makes their decision that much worse. Instead of being able to promote it when it arrives as the final planet revealed, a miraculous and ambitious mission to the outer limits, the demotion diminishes the headlines and possible interest and support for future missions that NH might have engendered. Beyond the cheap way the IAU did it, even if it had been handled right, they should have waited until after NH. To do so after the mission had launched and was well on it's way shows disrespect to the folks who worked on it as well as hurting the cause of public awareness/support for astronomy. There was just nothing about the demotion that was done correctly, and so Tyson's absolute disregard for objections especially in light of NH is all the more grating to me as an astronomy geek and passionate advocate for the future of human exploration.

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #489: July 28, 2013, 01:16:51 AM »
A bit late to reply, but I would have said what Chief did - it should have been grandfathered in. Sedna and ilk clearly demonstrate Pluto isn't alone, and likely one of countless others. But there are three factors. First, Pluto is still special. It's discovery by Clyde Tombaugh (sp) was rather unique and amazing. No other KBO comes anywhere close to actually becoming the 8th 'planet', meaning, Pluto is unique in it's proximity to the sun. I strongly disagree with the IAU's assertion that Pluto hasn't 'cleared out it's neighborhood' because Charon's size is so close to Pluto. Charon is only 11% of the mass of Pluto - hardly a clear cut case for a binary system imo.

The KBOs probably are littering the outer reaches of the system, close by to one another, with strays close in size to the parent body common, and a vast majority of them not massive enough to have enough gravity to become somewhat round. Pluto... well, like I said with the 8th planet comment, Pluto is different, and applying any of the previous specifications to it is a stretch. Considering the historicity of Pluto, to demote it when it isn't cut and dry like other KBO's is just plain wrong.

There's the historical and cultural factor where generations learned of planet number nine.

But my main point of contention, and one which focuses more on Tyson, was the way it was done. I believe I said the decision harmed the reputation of astronomy greatly. It did so for the reasons mentioned above, the comical 'planet no longer a planet' situation. But more than anything - the IAU waited until the absolute end of the conference. What was it, like 90% of the voting body had left at that point (too lazy to look it up.) Bottom line, only a fraction of a fraction voted to demote Pluto. There was hardly a legitimate debate about it involving all the people who should have been involved. It was absurd and underhanded.

More than anything though, because of how they did it caused an extreme conflict amongst astronomers. When the news got wind, you had these details emerge along with astronomers infighting and commenting on how ridiculous the whole thing was, how much they disagreed with it, whatever. Something like Pluto, demoting a freaking planet, should have been a long process involving the entire voting body along with others so that a genuine consensus and agreement could have been reached. Instead the IAU came off, looking like fools and rapscallions with an agenda, making a significantly unpopular decision among the average joe, and causing embarrassment when the infighting and underhandedness was revealed and those who disagreed made their feelings known to the press.

All around pathetic and horribly handled. Tyson's casual dismissal and arrogant condescension to any who disagreed just added kindling to my dislike for the man as the face of modern astronomy. Even if you agreed 100% with the decision, a reasonable person would concede it was a disaster and a mistake to have been done the way it was. Likewise, this pales in comparison to idiocy like 'ice fishing on Europa' and wanting to 'kiss a Europan fish' or whatever it was he said.

Oh, one more bit - I was going to conclude that I don't care about the IAU's decision and that when New Horizons visits it in another couple years, we'll be looking at the ninth planet as far as I'm concerned. By the by, I know I've said this before, but New Horizons is going to be an amazing mission. Look up the best images we have of Pluto from Hubble - a tiny dot. Then imagine we've sent a probe all the way there, and will be getting data and images up close and personal. The final piece of a solar system tour begun with Voyager and the Venusian and Martian missions from the 60s-70s.

But NH makes their decision that much worse. Instead of being able to promote it when it arrives as the final planet revealed, a miraculous and ambitious mission to the outer limits, the demotion diminishes the headlines and possible interest and support for future missions that NH might have engendered. Beyond the cheap way the IAU did it, even if it had been handled right, they should have waited until after NH. To do so after the mission had launched and was well on it's way shows disrespect to the folks who worked on it as well as hurting the cause of public awareness/support for astronomy. There was just nothing about the demotion that was done correctly, and so Tyson's absolute disregard for objections especially in light of NH is all the more grating to me as an astronomy geek and passionate advocate for the future of human exploration.
Charon's size relative to Pluto isn't the reason scientists argued Pluto hadn't cleared its orbit of debris.  If it was only an issue of size Pluto and Charon may have been redubbed a dual-planet system but, as you pointed out, Charon is tiny compared to Pluto.  In fact, our moon has the largest proportion of mass to orbited planet's mass of any moon in the Solar System.  The closest thing we have in our Solar System to a dual-planet system is the Earth and the Moon.  The issue with Pluto is that it passes through the orbits of several other Kuiper Belt objects.  As a small, icy world it also behaves almost identically to the other Kuiper objects but behaves quite differently from any other planet.  I would have had no problem grandfathering it in but from a scientific standpoint, I would hope we would understand that it isn't accurate.

I don't find Tyson to be arrogant and underhanded about Pluto.  Yes he's jokingly said, "Get over it," and said a few other smartass comments but that's his personality.  He's a bit of a hyperactive, nerdy guy who (like most really nerdy guys) will occasionally make a joke that may be a bit in poor taste.  When you can actually get him to talk about it though he actually explains that he thinks the whole classification system with planets is messed up.  He thought Pluto and the other Kuiper objects were similar so in 2000 he grouped Pluto with the Kuiper objects, not with the planets in the Hayden Planetarium and people freaked out.  What no one talks about is the fact that he also grouped the terrestrial planets and the gas giants separately indicating that they were as different from each other as Pluto was to them.  Tyson argues that the 2006 reclassification was actually very poorly done and will likely need to be reevaluated in the future as we discover more and more exoplanets.

As far as promoting new space missions, I don't think not being able to promote Pluto as a planet will have a major impact on future space exploration.  I think what will be much more impactful is proving the potential for economic gain.  If you can show that finding a cheap way to mine asteroids would make many of the precious metals much more affordable and show that the mining could really be done, people will pour money into NASA to make that happen.  The result is a better-funded NASA that gains more than just the ability to mine asteroids.  I think as a future astrophysicist it is my job to inform myself and others as much as possible about the economic benefits of space travel because that is something you can really sell to Congress (the people who allocate the money to NASA).  Congress doesn't care if Pluto is or isn't a planet.  They care about having a good economy so they can all get reelected and maintain their powerful, wealthy lifestyles.  If you can show that space travel is a great way to boost the economy, I think they'll be all ears.

Offline Coladar

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #490: August 09, 2013, 05:04:23 PM »
So a bunch of stories have come out just in the past 24 hours finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (If there were more options denoting emphasis than bolding, italics and underline, I'd add them too.) putting the spotlight on Europa as a destination for exploration. My God, we spend billions on a damnable dead planet in Mars - Europa sits tauntingly with an ocean containing more water, in liquid form, than exists on all of Earth. I despise a global situation which allows us to have multiple bodies containing liquid water easily within our reach (not lightyears distant) which we have totally and utterly ignored, and which no missions are planned within the next two decades or so.

Yes, Europa has miles of ice you've got to deal with before you get to those kissable Europan fish. There's hope that some of that water might get carried to the surface over millions of years, thus containing some frozen microbes. There's even wild speculation the red streaks on Europa's surface are from microorganisms. We're sending a probe, already on the way, to Jupiter. JUNO. It has no intention of investigating Europa specifically, it's primary mission solely on Jupiter.

And of course... This press won't amount to a Europa mission - but we absurdly focus on Europa, the most likely candidate for life, but the hardest of three liquid water bodies besides Earth to research. Enceladus? You don't even need to land to detect life, should it exist. That puppy unleashes jets of gaseous water into space, so all you need is an orbiter.

Then there's Titan. Titan could have liquid water based life from a subsurface ocean like Europa. Unlike Europa, it has recent cryvolcanos... Meaning that subsurface ocean has erupted on the surface, where samples lie, without any melting or digging. The possibility of radically different life subsisting on liquid methane, surface methane, where it rains down from clouds ala water on Earth? Bonus. Even if you didn't suspect Titan could have any life at all, which it very likely does, somewhere, Titan is the most fascinating body in our entire solar system. Insanely complex, incredibly similar to dynamics seen only on Earth (Climatological, atmospheric, etc.)

I will cry if we've yet to investigate just one of these bodies properly before I die... Yet I suspect it doubtful we will. Three different worlds where life may well exist - three different worlds, jn our solar system, where liquid water exists, which we stubbornly assert is a requirement for life... and we persist in tossing billions at Mars or the Moon. Even missions to asteroids, for sample returns, pale in comparison. Nothing should take precedent over our search for life within reasonable limits (Our solar system.) And yet seemingly everything but that is our priority. Missions to Venus, Mercury, comets and asteroids - returning to Europa's home, Jupiter, without a single instrument focusing on Europa. Insanity.


Online Nathan

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #491: August 09, 2013, 05:07:08 PM »
I honestly feel lucky we're exploring at all with the way NASA keeps having its budget cut, as it it amounts to anything compared to other spending like military.

Offline Coladar

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #492: August 09, 2013, 05:07:46 PM »
Figured I'd split this from my rant... Came across this link in one of the Europa articles. Insanity, thy name is...

http://rt.com/news/muslims-observatory-lunar-month-110/

Last I checked, we've got a pretty good idea when new moons arrive to the picosecond, without the help of the man in the sky. I can't even imagine how this is a debate, and can only hope the article is leaving something out. I read that, and yet I'm surprised by us ignoring our exploration of the heavens themselves.

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #493: August 18, 2013, 06:15:24 PM »
So a bunch of stories have come out just in the past 24 hours finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (If there were more options denoting emphasis than bolding, italics and underline, I'd add them too.) putting the spotlight on Europa as a destination for exploration. My God, we spend billions on a damnable dead planet in Mars - Europa sits tauntingly with an ocean containing more water, in liquid form, than exists on all of Earth. I despise a global situation which allows us to have multiple bodies containing liquid water easily within our reach (not lightyears distant) which we have totally and utterly ignored, and which no missions are planned within the next two decades or so.

Yes, Europa has miles of ice you've got to deal with before you get to those kissable Europan fish. There's hope that some of that water might get carried to the surface over millions of years, thus containing some frozen microbes. There's even wild speculation the red streaks on Europa's surface are from microorganisms. We're sending a probe, already on the way, to Jupiter. JUNO. It has no intention of investigating Europa specifically, it's primary mission solely on Jupiter.

And of course... This press won't amount to a Europa mission - but we absurdly focus on Europa, the most likely candidate for life, but the hardest of three liquid water bodies besides Earth to research. Enceladus? You don't even need to land to detect life, should it exist. That puppy unleashes jets of gaseous water into space, so all you need is an orbiter.

Then there's Titan. Titan could have liquid water based life from a subsurface ocean like Europa. Unlike Europa, it has recent cryvolcanos... Meaning that subsurface ocean has erupted on the surface, where samples lie, without any melting or digging. The possibility of radically different life subsisting on liquid methane, surface methane, where it rains down from clouds ala water on Earth? Bonus. Even if you didn't suspect Titan could have any life at all, which it very likely does, somewhere, Titan is the most fascinating body in our entire solar system. Insanely complex, incredibly similar to dynamics seen only on Earth (Climatological, atmospheric, etc.)

I will cry if we've yet to investigate just one of these bodies properly before I die... Yet I suspect it doubtful we will. Three different worlds where life may well exist - three different worlds, jn our solar system, where liquid water exists, which we stubbornly assert is a requirement for life... and we persist in tossing billions at Mars or the Moon. Even missions to asteroids, for sample returns, pale in comparison. Nothing should take precedent over our search for life within reasonable limits (Our solar system.) And yet seemingly everything but that is our priority. Missions to Venus, Mercury, comets and asteroids - returning to Europa's home, Jupiter, without a single instrument focusing on Europa. Insanity.


Sad part is we were basically supposed to have an answer on whether Europa had oceans under the ice in 2011 but the project got canned in the planning phase for lack of funding.  It is, frankly, fairly unlikely that any of those three moons has life as life needs active chemistry to form and molecules move much slower at lower temperatures.  But it is, in principle, possible, becoming much more likely were we to discover definitive proof of an ocean underneath the surface of Europa.  Enceladus is less likely because it is much smaller and would have a harder time holding onto heat that friction from Saturn's gravity could cause.  All of that said, because it is possible in principle and relatively cheap to find out, we should absolutely be doing it.

Offline imref

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #494: September 06, 2013, 11:40:14 PM »
Anyone see LADEE blast off tonight from Wallops Island? It was clearly visible out here in western prince william country from about T+1:00 to T+5:00. 

Offline mitlen

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #495: September 06, 2013, 11:44:02 PM »
Anyone see LADEE blast off tonight from Wallops Island? It was clearly visible out here in western prince william country from about T+1:00 to T+5:00. 

Yeah, pretty cool.    There's a little hill in my neighborhood (Eastern Loudoun) and there were a few of us up there.   She poppoed up on the horizon pretty quick and was visible for about 5 minutes.  I had binoculars and saw what seemed to be at least 2 stages.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #496: September 12, 2013, 12:45:36 PM »


Rocket Frog!

Online Nathan

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #497: September 12, 2013, 02:07:22 PM »
Burning out his fuse up here alone.

Offline Coladar

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #498: September 12, 2013, 03:45:51 PM »
Man, saw this thread bumped and was afraid someone beat me to the punch. I'd go so far as to say this is the most amazing, spectacular, wondrous and exciting news in my lifetime. (Born after Apollo missions.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/out-there-nasas-voyager-1-becomes-first-spacecraft-to-speed-through-interstellar-space/2013/09/12/55a9b094-1bd4-11e3-80ac-96205cacb45a_story.html

Voyager 1 has left the building, ladies and gents. (Although it actually, apparently, happened a year ago.)

Now to address the inevitable 'so what?'s, why is this so important and thrilling? Admittedly, all Voyager detected was a difference in magnetic fields and the strength of particles from outside our solar system. That's largely all this is.

But...

We have left our solar system. Voyager 1 is now the first human made object, possibly (although most certainly not) the very first life based object to leave the stellar system of that specie's birth. It's an amazing accomplishment. And it means that no matter what happens to us, whether we wipe ourselves out, our sun goes buh-bye, or whatever - there will always be a piece of humanity drifting about the cosmos, at the very least for millions of years. Bravo, NASA of old, bravo.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Space. The Final Frontier.
« Reply #499: September 12, 2013, 04:42:40 PM »
Man, saw this thread bumped and was afraid someone beat me to the punch. I'd go so far as to say this is the most amazing, spectacular, wondrous and exciting news in my lifetime. (Born after Apollo missions.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/out-there-nasas-voyager-1-becomes-first-spacecraft-to-speed-through-interstellar-space/2013/09/12/55a9b094-1bd4-11e3-80ac-96205cacb45a_story.html

Voyager 1 has left the building, ladies and gents. (Although it actually, apparently, happened a year ago.)

Now to address the inevitable 'so what?'s, why is this so important and thrilling? Admittedly, all Voyager detected was a difference in magnetic fields and the strength of particles from outside our solar system. That's largely all this is.

But...

We have left our solar system. Voyager 1 is now the first human made object, possibly (although most certainly not) the very first life based object to leave the stellar system of that specie's birth. It's an amazing accomplishment. And it means that no matter what happens to us, whether we wipe ourselves out, our sun goes buh-bye, or whatever - there will always be a piece of humanity drifting about the cosmos, at the very least for millions of years. Bravo, NASA of old, bravo.


Just saw that  ...  I'm always amazed.

PS    I saw Shepard go up on TV in study hall.   They called us into the auditorium to see it on a 20" BW on stage.