Rumor: Cliff Lee to Nationals??

[Coladar]

Apparently now the offseason ends at the end of the Winter Meetings.  Well, according to some.  The calendar actually puts the end of the offseason 3+ months away.

Granted, but the #1 pitchers are going to be gone in the next week as far as FAs. Not like you had a selection to begin with.

[hammondsnats]

Martin is a perfectly good #5 starter. Not renewing season tickets because the Yankees overpaid for Lee when the Nats overpaid for Werth is overly dramatic.

Lol ok.

We aren't a 75+ winner with just adding werth.  We need more moves.  With losing 300 games you have to overpay to bring in talent and improve.  Lerners dug their own holes for that.  Just overpay for lee. 

[hammondsnats]

Granted, but the #1 pitchers are going to be gone in the next week as far as FAs. Not like you had a selection to begin with.

There's no sense in chatting with him.

[Coladar]

Hold on.  So, if Greinke is a FA we can try to sign him but if we trade for 2 years of control then we can't try to sign him?  Okay.

Huh? I'm just saying I think it's insane to cripple our club, and trade Zimmermann, who we still have far more than two years of control, along with Desmond and a third, for two years of Greinke. I'm not a fan of trading for one or two years and losing young talent you still have several years combined control over. Get a FA pitcher, don't lose a ton of talent you still have years of control over for two years on one player. Nine times out of ten, that's not a move I am in favor of regardless of who you are trading for. Likewise, I accept I am in the minority and most fans and GMs often believe it's worthwhile depending on the situation.

So long as there is an equivalent FA option available, I'd rather pay much more money for them than lose young prospects already in the majors for a couple years of a player. Zimmermann could come close to Greinke's level of success in another year or two. Losing him and two other potentially excellent players for two years of Greinke, or Garza, or another ace, just isn't worth it for me. Again, I realize most don't agree with that logic.

[Potomac Cannons]

Huh? I'm just saying I think it's insane to cripple our club, and trade Zimmermann, who we still have far more than two years of control, along with Desmond and a third, for two years of Greinke. I'm not a fan of trading for one or two years and losing young talent you still have several years combined control over. Get a FA pitcher, don't lose a ton of talent you still have years of control over for two years on one player. Nine times out of ten, that's not a move I am in favor of regardless of who you are trading for. Likewise, I accept I am in the minority and most fans and GMs often believe it's worthwhile depending on the situation.

So long as there is an equivalent FA option available, I'd rather pay much more money for them than lose young prospects already in the majors for a couple years of a player. Zimmermann could come close to Greinke's level of success in another year or two. Losing him and two other potentially excellent players for two years of Greinke, or Garza, or another ace, just isn't worth it for me. Again, I realize most don't agree with that logic.

Desmond is a good prospect but really no more than above average at SS at his peak.  Espinosa is a little better and neither projects as valuable at 2B.  If JZ is going to be moved then it has to be for an established top tier SP.  With Greinke the two years of control drives the price up.

If it's JZ/Desmond/??? then you pull the trigger and work your ass off to sell Greinke on staying and then extend him.

I'd still prefer Shields as he makes the most sense.

[Potomac Cannons]

Granted, but the #1 pitchers are going to be gone in the next week as far as FAs. Not like you had a selection to begin with.

There was 1.  There's still one #2 SP in Pavano.  Brad Penny/Jeff Francis are both good chances to take (better than CMW/Webb the last two years.  We have no idea what could turn up on the trade market.

[Coladar]

There was 1.  There's still one #2 SP in Pavano.  Brad Penny/Jeff Francis are both good chances to take (better than CMW/Webb the last two years.  We have no idea what could turn up on the trade market.

I was factoring Pavano in with Lee. They aren't in the same galaxy, but Pavano still rates as a weak #1 on a handful of teams (admittedly, even that's a stretch.) Let's consider Pavano as a #2 and Lee as the only #1. My point still holds, there aren't even many #2s available this year, and they will be gone shortly as well. Offseason might still have three months left, but the talent available is disappearing rapidly and will pretty much be wiped out in the next week. Pitchers or any other position. Pena and Konerko both gone in the past 24 hours... Come Christmas, pretty much all that will be left is filler. So in reality, the offseason for filling holes with quality talent has a week or two left.

[UMDNats]

Amazing that Carl Pavano is being discussed as a #2.

[Potomac Cannons]

Amazing that Carl Pavano is being discussed as a #2.

He is.  The stats support it.

[Smithian]

Lol ok.

We aren't a 75+ winner with just adding werth.  We need more moves.  With losing 300 games you have to overpay to bring in talent and improve.  Lerners dug their own holes for that.  Just overpay for lee. 

You nag more than anyone alive. We could sign Lee tomorrow to a 7 year, $140 million contract and you'd be on here complaining like a woman that our payroll still isn't $100 million yet. Get over it. By Gosh man, we just gave someone a $100+ million dollar contract. Baby steps. You're a drive by message board troll who turns every thread into LAC/LANC. We know, you hate the Lerners. Enjoy the baby steps. We're going the right direction.

[cmdterps44]

You nag more than anyone alive. We could sign Lee tomorrow to a 7 year, $140 million contract and you'd be on here complaining like a woman that our payroll still isn't $100 million yet. Get over it. By Gosh man, we just gave someone a $100+ million dollar contract. Baby steps. You're a drive by message board troll who turns every thread into LAC/LANC. We know, you hate the Lerners. Enjoy the baby steps. We're going the right direction.

lol he speaks the truth in some areas. Werth won't win us games. It's a great signing none the less though.

[Smithian]

lol he speaks the truth in some areas. Werth won't win us games. It's a great signing none the less though.

Cliff Lee won't win you games alone either. Baby steps. But for the moment it's "What have you done for me lately?" and they have done well. This is an unprecedented move by the Lerners. Due to us being in unchartered territory as Nats fans, we have no reason to doubt or believe the Nationals won't move and add more throughout the offseason to supplement this headline making move. Let's be fans and hope for the best.

[cmdterps44]

Cliff Lee won't win you games alone either. Baby steps. But for the moment it's "What have you done for me lately?" and they have done well. This is an unprecedented move by the Lerners. Due to us being in unchartered territory as Nats fans, we have no reason to doubt or believe the Nationals won't move and add more throughout the offseason to supplement this headline making move. Let's be fans and hope for the best.

Done well? Werth is awesome. No doubt about it. He knows that. Everyone knows that. The point is, we won't win games with a team like this. While moves won't be made every day, which means we have to wait until we find some good news out, its still a must for us to sign another pitcher and 1b. I'm not worried. But think about it. Is it baby steps if we go into next year with Werth and use Morse as the 1b? That's going backwards.

Yes, Werth is better defender and clutch, but signing him alone is just replacing Dunn.

[PC]

It would really be great if the Nats swooped in and got Lee so that the Yankees would get none of the top free agents.

[Lintyfresh85]

Cliff Lee won't win you games alone either. Baby steps. But for the moment it's "What have you done for me lately?" and they have done well. This is an unprecedented move by the Lerners. Due to us being in unchartered territory as Nats fans, we have no reason to doubt or believe the Nationals won't move and add more throughout the offseason to supplement this headline making move. Let's be fans and hope for the best.

Cliff Lee actually does win you games on his own.

He'd be taking the spot of someone clearly inferior to him.

With Werth v. Dunn, that's not the case.

Different players with similar results.

Werth + LaRoche is better than Dunn.... but Lee v. anyone is a massive upgrade.

[hammondsnats]

Cliff Lee actually does win you games on his own.

He'd be taking the spot of someone clearly inferior to him.

With Werth v. Dunn, that's not the case.

Different players with similar results.

Werth + LaRoche is better than Dunn.... but Lee v. anyone is a massive upgrade.

exactly. 

i said a while back ... extend dunn, sign werth/crawford, get top pitcher.

well we've only done 1 of those. 

[Smithian]

Done well? Werth is awesome. No doubt about it. He knows that. Everyone knows that. The point is, we won't win games with a team like this. While moves won't be made every day, which means we have to wait until we find some good news out, its still a must for us to sign another pitcher and 1b. I'm not worried. But think about it. Is it baby steps if we go into next year with Werth and use Morse as the 1b? That's going backwards.

Yes, Werth is better defender and clutch, but signing him alone is just replacing Dunn.

Well let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya that the off-season isn't over? Did I not mention we should hope they'll add more throughout the offseason?

Yeah, I disagree with the Lerners on some issues, but the LAC extremists need to get over it. We just signed Jayson Werth and there is a long offseason left to go. However, if hammonds sleeps better at night screaming "LAC!!!!" every chance possible when this offseason is off to a solid start, then more power to him. The offseason is long from over.

[hammondsnats]

You nag more than anyone alive. We could sign Lee tomorrow to a 7 year, $140 million contract and you'd be on here complaining like a woman that our payroll still isn't $100 million yet. Get over it. By Gosh man, we just gave someone a $100+ million dollar contract. Baby steps. You're a drive by message board troll who turns every thread into LAC/LANC. We know, you hate the Lerners. Enjoy the baby steps. We're going the right direction.

and smithian ... freak baby steps.  we've lost 300 games in 3 years dude.

i nag because i've spent thousands of dollars and hours on caring about this team to succeed.  we haven't.  i have the right to nag, especially when someone running the show apparently doesn't care.  now if you haven't been reading recently, you wouldn't know i have stuck up for the lerners results in landing werth and their efforts this week.  but with that said, if we don't get anyone else of importance before this offseason ... all that "nats impressed outsiders", "nats were very aggressive", "nats signed werth, buy season tickets" bullcrap will make me mad.

lol drive-by?  son, look @ my post count and how long i've been here.  again, i'm just tired of wasting so much money/effort on this team building a winner if our own guys aren't committed to doing the same.

[hammondsnats]

Well let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya that the off-season isn't over? Did I not mention we should hope they'll add more throughout the offseason?

Yeah, I disagree with the Lerners on some issues, but the LAC extremists need to get over it. We just signed Jayson Werth and there is a long offseason left to go. However, if hammonds sleeps better at night screaming "LAC!!!!" every chance possible when this offseason is off to a solid start, then more power to him. The offseason is long from over.

and once again i guess you have a tough time reading ... i said i acknowledge there is still plenty of offseason left, but let the record show ... IF we don't get any more big guns, then the crap storm should commence.

[Smithian]

but with that said, if we don't get anyone else of importance before this offseason ... all that "nats impressed outsiders", "nats were very aggressive", "nats signed werth, buy season tickets" bullcrap will make me mad.

If we add no one else, then yes, I support being pissed. I'll be very angry myself with this thusfar crapass franchise. However, we just handed out our first $100 million contract. We have no reason at this point to say whether it is or isn't an isolated event. Let's give Rizzo some more time to pursue guys like Adam LaRoche and to explore trade possibilities before we all burn the Lerners at the stake again.

[cmdterps44]

Well let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya that the off-season isn't over? Did I not mention we should hope they'll add more throughout the offseason?

Yeah, I disagree with the Lerners on some issues, but the LAC extremists need to get over it. We just signed Jayson Werth and there is a long offseason left to go. However, if hammonds sleeps better at night screaming "LAC!!!!" every chance possible when this offseason is off to a solid start, then more power to him. The offseason is long from over.

well when most of the good players are singing soon, its a must we act. come two months from now, most of the good players will have been signed so thats why theres a movement to ask to sign for more.

[hammondsnats]

If we add no one else, then yes, I support being pissed. I'll be very angry myself with this thusfar crapass franchise. However, we just handed out our first $100 million contract. We have no reason at this point to say whether it is or isn't an isolated event. Let's give Rizzo some more time to pursue guys like Adam LaRoche and to explore trade possibilities before we all burn the Lerners at the stake again.

dude.  you already said baby steps.  there are no moral victories in this game.

people have been hyping up "nats want to make a splash" for so long ... werth was step one, i'm anxious to see if there is going to be steps to follow (greinke/lee/etc).  that's the kind of steps we should be taking.  giant leaps.  not freakin baby steps after losing 300 games.

[Smithian]

and once again i guess you have a tough time reading ... i said i acknowledge there is still plenty of offseason left, but let the record show ... IF we don't get any more big guns, then the crap storm should commence.

let the record show ... IF we acquire more big guns (LaRoche, Lee, Garza, Lee, etc), then the time of positive feelings should commence.

My main argument is no one should point at this move as a continuation or end of LAC. At this point this move alone does not make a successful offseason. However, by the same tune, even adding a LaRoche and another respectable pitcher(even a legitimate #4 would be an improvement for this staff) would make this a successful offseason. It’s early. Let’s atleast shelf the LAC/LANC/LAI arguments until mid-January.

[hammondsnats]

let the record show ... IF we acquire more big guns (LaRoche, Lee, Garza, Lee, etc), then the time of positive feelings should commence.

My main argument is no one should point at this move as a continuation or end of LAC. At this point this move alone does not make a successful offseason. However, by the same tune, even adding a LaRoche and another respectable pitcher(even a legitimate #4 would be an improvement for this staff) would make this a successful offseason. It’s early. Let’s atleast shelf the LAC/LANC/LAI arguments until mid-January.

you are missing my point.  i have given the lerners credit for signing werth.  i was ecstatic.  but we still let dunn go.  we still missed the boat on countless free agents in the past.  i don't want to dwell too much on the past, but if it's of any indication, then the future could be the same (going cheap).

we just opened the wallet for a player we needed to get in werth and i'm grateful.  but lerner/rizzo need to move on to next guy.  yes i can be patient, but if other players drop off market soon, i'm not going to sit back and keep my mouth shut.  its a message board.  i'll call a spade a spade and will call out the nats when they miss the boat. 

but i will give them credit, when it's due.

[PANatsFan]

Supposedly the Red Sox made a 7 year offer to Lee to try and price the Yankees out of it. Stupid jerks. I hate the Sawx. They are destroying the Nats' Lee chances.