Author Topic: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2  (Read 7375 times)

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Offline GMUNat

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #200: September 18, 2010, 10:29:06 PM »
Firing Riggleman isn't going to accomplish much of anything, sadly.
The only reason this team should keep Riggleman is to let him be the scapegoat for next season's bad team. The team will look more attractive for managers after next season with Strasburg coming back and Zimmermann coming into form

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #201: September 18, 2010, 10:30:56 PM »
Firing Riggleman isn't going to accomplish much of anything, sadly.

Sure it will.  He's the one who badly overused Clippard early in the year, he's the one who insists on playing Nyjer, he's the one who puts together some of the most nonsensical lineups possible, and he's the one who seems intent on holding down guys like Morse with the incessant double switching while insuring Mench/Harris get a ridiculous number of ABs. 

An adequate manager would have squeezed 5-6 more wins out of the team at this point.  That's obviously not much but manager's rarely account for much more than that.  It seems extremely obvious that Bernadina has no business batting 5th in the lineup.  He's a top/bottom of the lineup guy yet Riggleman can't figure that out and keeps batting him in front of Morse.  A retarded two year old could figure out that Nosa/Desi/Zim/Dunn/Morse/Bernie or Nosa/Desi/Bernie/Zim/Dunn/Morse is the way to go right now.  Does a better job of forcing the other manager's hand on relief options with the R/L batting differences all the way through the 6 spot in the order.  Riggleman can't seem to figure out the obvious so a new manager can't hurt.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #202: September 18, 2010, 10:33:07 PM »
he's the one who insists on playing Nyjer

I get the feeling that's a FO move, hence the bobblehead.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #203: September 18, 2010, 10:33:14 PM »
I think its good to have a guy a little wild around. He certainly doesn't want to hit anyone. But on the other hand you don't want to just throw it down the middle and you are the victim of a come backer.
 I am a little upset. I did wait 3 hours to watch him pitch and right in between innings my computer crashes.
 Oh well Good Job Bally and the rest of the Bullpen. They seem to have it together.
 Good nite!

They put the replay up tomorrow, don't they? He had a Chad Cordero inning and it was great fun.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #204: September 18, 2010, 10:34:18 PM »
I get the feeling that's a FO move, hence the bobblehead.

Pretty sure the bobblehead was planned well before the meltdown started (and maybe before the glove throwing).

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #205: September 18, 2010, 10:35:35 PM »
Pretty sure the bobblehead was planned well before the meltdown started (and maybe before the glove throwing).

They should have converted them to glove launchers :evil:

I'm on team Nyjer at this point. I think people have way overreacted, I think those Philly aholes said a bunch that didn't make the paper, and I think there's no reason for everyone to be on his case so badly. I also think his play this year sucked and they needed to demote him and let it sink in that he's not irreplacable.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #206: September 18, 2010, 11:17:14 PM »
They should have converted them to glove launchers :evil:

I'm on team Nyjer at this point. I think people have way overreacted, I think those Philly aholes said a bunch that didn't make the paper, and I think there's no reason for everyone to be on his case so badly. I also think his play this year sucked and they needed to demote him and let it sink in that he's not irreplacable.

It wasn't one instance though.  It was 4 months of crap that peaked in a two week run of jerkness that should have gotten him benched for the year by the team.  He's arguably worse than Maxwell at this point and Maxwell has the advantage in age and mental capability.

Offline bglide

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #207: September 19, 2010, 05:07:49 AM »
JZ sucks, guys. 

Offline Coladar

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #208: September 19, 2010, 06:37:53 AM »
JZ sucks, guys.  

Sorry, it's not JZ, it's Ramos. Zmann was lights out during rehab. He was decent to stellar coming back. His one bad start, his first one back, well, it was his first game back. Then he gets Ramos on Sunday due to the afternoon start. Absolute nightmare. Ramos again tonight. Absolute nightmare. I have to expect Ramos caught for him in AAA, but maybe in the minors the dugout was calling pitches and up here they're letting Ramos take the initiative. We all saw how huge a difference a catcher can make in destroying a pitcher when Pudge got injured in May with Capps. Capps was perfect the first month and a half, then Nieves comes in and Capps blows save after save. Zimmermann, even in his awful first start, had 4ks in 4 innings. His last two with Ramos, he has 3Ks combined? 

Maybe Zimmermann is having some awful outings, but I suspect the Ramos and bad Zimmermann outings are more than coincidence. Mind you, I'm not saying anything negative about Ramos. Some pitchers and catchers are just total disasters together. Most guys have decent outings with Nieves, but Capps got clocked whenever Nieves was calling pitches. Or maybe they aren't letting Ramos call games yet, and it's the bench calling pitches. Pudge obviously calls the games, so if Ramos isn't making the calls you'd still have a different mindset calling pitches than when Zimmerman has been wildly, and he was wildly, successful for starts #2 and #3.

Offline Sharp

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #209: September 19, 2010, 09:31:48 AM »
Sorry, it's not JZ, it's Ramos. Zmann was lights out during rehab. He was decent to stellar coming back. His one bad start, his first one back, well, it was his first game back. Then he gets Ramos on Sunday due to the afternoon start. Absolute nightmare. Ramos again tonight. Absolute nightmare. I have to expect Ramos caught for him in AAA, but maybe in the minors the dugout was calling pitches and up here they're letting Ramos take the initiative. We all saw how huge a difference a catcher can make in destroying a pitcher when Pudge got injured in May with Capps. Capps was perfect the first month and a half, then Nieves comes in and Capps blows save after save. Zimmermann, even in his awful first start, had 4ks in 4 innings. His last two with Ramos, he has 3Ks combined?  

Maybe Zimmermann is having some awful outings, but I suspect the Ramos and bad Zimmermann outings are more than coincidence. Mind you, I'm not saying anything negative about Ramos. Some pitchers and catchers are just total disasters together. Most guys have decent outings with Nieves, but Capps got clocked whenever Nieves was calling pitches. Or maybe they aren't letting Ramos call games yet, and it's the bench calling pitches. Pudge obviously calls the games, so if Ramos isn't making the calls you'd still have a different mindset calling pitches than when Zimmerman has been wildly, and he was wildly, successful for starts #2 and #3.
Wow... y'all are really eager to blame the catchers for games like these.  Look, Zimm didn't have good stuff during the 0-strikeout game, plain and simple.  And this game was decent if he hadn't given up the home runs.  Note: catchers do not give up home runs!  There is no such thing (to my knowledge anyway) as a "flyball catcher."   Next you are all going to be saying that Victor Martinez has three no-hitters or something equally ridiculous.  The catcher is important, but catching != pitching, and if a pitcher doesn't like how the catcher is calling the game, he always has the last word.  And saying Zimmermann was stellar during rehab means nothing because he was pitching in the minors... not against the Phillies.

Offline The Chief

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #210: September 19, 2010, 11:21:16 AM »
Not sure about people blaming Ramos but Potomac Cannons absolutely despises Pudge, so you probably shouldn't count him among "y'all" when noting our tendency to blame things on the catcher.

Though in fairness, a lot of people here don't think much of Nieves either.

Offline Sharp

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #211: September 19, 2010, 11:30:32 AM »
Not sure about people blaming Ramos but Potomac Cannons absolutely despises Pudge, so you probably shouldn't count him among "y'all" when noting our tendency to blame things on the catcher.

Though in fairness, a lot of people here don't think much of Nieves either.
Nieves is pretty terrible both defensively and offensively, but I don't think he's so bad that he can turn a great outing into an awful one.  His badness is documentable more in his poor arm, tendency to allow passed balls, awful hitting, etc.

Offline Coladar

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #212: September 20, 2010, 01:07:17 AM »
This isn't locked yet, so I'll take the opportunity to reply. I am not blaming it all on Ramos, not at all. Of course the pitcher can and should shake off pitches he doesn't like. But a young, inexperienced pitcher like Zimmermann is far less apt to do so than a veteran. And I'd agree his rehab games don't count, but they were so unbelievable in both AA and AAA, with an ERA of under 1 for several games, that does count for something. GCL game? I'd agree. AAA? It counts, if not fully, it still counts when you are as dominant as he was.

And my key point was Zimmermann was what we expected his second and third MLB starts. With Pudge. Good to great. Then he's as bad as it gets last Sunday and yesterday. With Ramos, a young catcher working with a young pitcher, neither that familiar with each other, and with Zimmermann likely not shaking off pitches as much as he should. The blame lies entirely with Zimmermann, I'm not arguing that. He threw the ball, he gave up the home runs, he didn't shake off the pitches. But I just want to stop the talk that Zimmermann is a failure, has lost it, whatever. You take away the two Ramos starts and he's as good as we hoped. That's more than a coincidence. So I believe Ramos is likely the reason Zimmermann was as bad as he was, although the fault remains squarely on Zimmermanns shoulders.

Online Lintyfresh85

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Re: Nationals @ Phillies, Game 2
« Reply #213: September 20, 2010, 03:16:30 AM »
Ramos has at most 5% (mindfact) to do with if Zimmerman is good or bad.

Other than blocking wild pitches and throwing out base stealers (or, in Pudge's case, having the other team NOT steal due to reputation), there's not a ton you're going to gain from one catcher over another in terms of game calling. Heck, for the most part, it's random as to what one catcher will produce compared to another in terms of staff ERA.

To prove my point...

2010 Nationals Catcher ERA

Pudge - 4.37
Nieves - 3.96
Ramos - 3.13
Maldonado - 3.16
Burke - 9.00

If, we are to believe Catcher ERA and pitch calling, is a true talent, then Mr. Nieves must be better than Pudge, right? Of course! It's random! Look at what Nieves produced in 2009

2009 Nationals Catcher ERA

Bard - 4.89
Nieves - 5.06
Flores - 5.12
Burke - 5.24

We all know Ramos has the reputation of being a great defensive catcher. I think you're looking for a scapegoat to deflect blame from Zimmermann.

Zimm's coming back from TJ surgery, give him time. No need to start blaming others, as you have done with Ramos. The simple explanation with JZ is the correct one, TJ recovery is a long process... there will be bumps along the way.