Author Topic: Batting Average is a joke.  (Read 1132 times)

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Offline tomterp

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #25: July 20, 2010, 10:48:16 AM »
But I don't know how you can possibly argue that, for evaluating an individual player, their batting average is a joke.

Because BA ignores walks, and power.

It treats walks as nothing, and a home run = a single.  That's why BA is a joke.  Who in their right mind would argue a home run = a single?    :crazy:

Offline The Chief

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #26: July 20, 2010, 10:51:47 AM »
Because BA ignores walks, and power.

It treats walks as nothing, and a home run = a single.  That's why BA is a joke.  Who in their right mind would argue a home run = a single?    :crazy:

I don't see what's so hard about using the triple-slash.  BA alone is clearly not the whole story, but some of you act like it should be ignored and argue such with the fervor of rabid dogs fighting over a piece of meat.

Did BA insult your mothers or something?  :shrug:

Offline tomterp

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #27: July 20, 2010, 10:57:31 AM »
I don't see what's so hard about using the triple-slash.  BA alone is clearly not the whole story, but some of you act like it should be ignored and argue such with the fervor of rabid dogs fighting over a piece of meat.

Did BA insult your mothers or something?  :shrug:

Equating BA to "hitting" is like equating errors to "defense".

Offline The Chief

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #28: July 20, 2010, 11:16:13 AM »
Equating BA to "hitting" is like equating errors to "defense".

That comparison does absolutely nothing to advance the discussion :lol:

Offline tomterp

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #29: July 20, 2010, 11:22:05 AM »
That comparison does absolutely nothing to advance the discussion :lol:

 :bow:

Offline GMUNat

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #30: July 20, 2010, 11:35:20 AM »
That comparison does absolutely nothing to advance the discussion :lol:
Desmond=No good on hitting or errors. What does that mean?

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #31: July 20, 2010, 04:49:43 PM »
There's nothing that BA tells you that OBP and SLG don't tell you with greater, and more useful, detail.

Offline JMW IV

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #32: July 20, 2010, 04:55:35 PM »
There's nothing that BA tells you that OBP and SLG don't tell you with greater, and more useful, detail.

OPS ftw.

it's the layman's stat.

metric freaks can go far more in detail with their stats, but for the average baseball fan with limited statistical knowledge, OPS is the way to go.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #33: July 20, 2010, 04:57:51 PM »
OPS ftw.

it's the layman's stat.

metric freaks can go far more in detail with their stats, but for the average baseball fan with limited statistical knowledge, OPS is the way to go.

With the OBP and SLG breakdown to show where in a lineup a batter may best fit.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #34: July 20, 2010, 04:58:51 PM »
The problem with OPS is it weights OBP and SLG equally, and changes in OBP more closely correlates with runs.

Offline JMW IV

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #35: July 20, 2010, 05:01:37 PM »
With the OBP and SLG breakdown to show where in a lineup a batter may best fit.

OBP/SLG/OPS

the new triple slash.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #36: July 20, 2010, 05:01:50 PM »
The problem with OPS is it weights OBP and SLG equally, and changes in OBP more closely correlates with runs.

Which is why I like the breakdown for determining where to put someone in the lineup.  Two .750 OPS guys could fit in very different spots.  A .380/.370 OBP/SLG guy goes in the 1 or 2 hole while the .320/430 guy has 6th spot written all over him.

Offline The Chief

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #37: July 20, 2010, 05:50:41 PM »
There's nothing that BA tells you that OBP and SLG don't tell you with greater, and more useful, detail.

Funny, I didn't know a walk could drive in a man from 2nd.

OBP/SLG/OPS

the new triple slash.

bit redundant isn't it?

This is my last post on the matter since some people are clearly determined to believe that BA has absolutely NO value in spite of the obvious fallacy of such a belief.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #38: July 20, 2010, 05:56:15 PM »
Funny, I didn't know a walk could drive in a man from 2nd.

No, but a hit does.  Those hits are already factored into OBP and tell how often the batter gets on base which is much more important than just when he gets a hit.  Those hits are already factored into SLG to give an idea of how much power the batter has which is much more important than just if he gets a hit.  There's a reason why Adam Dunn was a very good hitter with a well below average BA.  It's because OBP and SLG are far more important than BA and take into account a much larger range of factors that include BA in the mix.

Offline Coladar

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #39: July 21, 2010, 01:31:09 AM »
There's nothing that BA tells you that OBP and SLG don't tell you with greater, and more useful, detail.

I absolutely agree. And there are plenty of sabermetric stats that blow OBP, SLG and OPS out of the water. But for a quick glance at an individuals performance hitting the ball, putting the ball in play, BA is not a joke stat as Tom argues. It's not meant to evaluate how a hitter sees the ball, thus how often they walk. Nor is it meant to evaluate power, doubles, HRs etc. It is simply how often the player puts the ball in play. And it is a highly legitimate stat considering it's consistency. Almost all players hit within 10% of the range of the stat. A handful have had seasons over .400 for over 100 years. If someone is batting below .200, they know their days are numbered. The stat is extraordinarily simple, it obviously tells very little of the story. But for evaluating the most basic, and fundamental, part of a players individual performance, it is still useful and meaningful. It definitely isn't a joke or something to be ignored, but to be used in tandem with other stats in evaluating a players performance.

A player has a high BA. Do they walk much compared to their hits? Look at their OBP and compare. Do they hit for power? Compare it with their SLG. I think BA is highly useful by itself, but it's true usefulness comes in comparing it with other stats. I cannot understand an argument discounting BA as totally useless and a "joke", even factoring in sabermetrics. It has it's uses so long as one understands it is a very simple stat and doesn't show any detail whatsoever.

Offline Evolution33

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #40: July 21, 2010, 07:26:04 AM »
Maybe I am just a crazy person, but I actually like knowing how often a guy gets a hit. I still want to know how often they get on base. I just enjoy seeing the difference between the BA and the OBP. It is kind of like how I like seeing a guys SLG, but I still want to know how many homers he has. I am not really in the business of evaluating players or deciding where they should hit in the line-up. I think all the information should be avaliable and if suddenly baseball-reference.com got taken over by some tyranical sabrnerd it would be just as bad as it getting taken over by Joe Morgan and all the advanced metrics disapearing.

I generally tend to discount people that live at the extremes. Keith Law in a chat the other week went as far to say "Runs don't matter." I guess he figured out a new way to score baseball games that he hasn't let the rest of the world in on. Keith Law and Joe Morgan are different sides of the same coin.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #41: July 21, 2010, 05:50:55 PM »
In that case, what is wrong with the tried and true triple slash?  BA/OBP/SLG  Easy to get OPS from that.

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #42: July 21, 2010, 08:37:31 PM »
BA isn't a "joke", it tells you a piece of information: how often a player gets a hit. OBP makes relatively more sense, but even then, there's the issue of power. People think that you should count up the total bases to assess value, but that's just not true. Nine singles are better than three triples.

Offline tomterp

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #43: July 21, 2010, 08:52:34 PM »
People think that you should count up the total bases to assess value, but that's just not true. Nine singles are better than three triples.

Now you are delving into more complex stats, and why they exist in the first place.  Ballpark factors, quality of opponent, game situation, all these are relevant to valuing offensive contributions.  VORP is one attempt to factor in a number of these relevant aspects into a single number that can be used to compare players to each other.

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #44: July 21, 2010, 09:23:41 PM »
Now you are delving into more complex stats, and why they exist in the first place.  Ballpark factors, quality of opponent, game situation, all these are relevant to valuing offensive contributions.  VORP is one attempt to factor in a number of these relevant aspects into a single number that can be used to compare players to each other.

Yeah, along with my favorite stat, .wOBA :)

I don't see why you need to use a stat like OPS, because it's "simple". It may be simple but it's also inaccurate for what you're trying to do, which is judge the value of hitters.

Offline tomterp

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #45: July 21, 2010, 09:43:55 PM »
Yeah, along with my favorite stat, .wOBA :)

I don't see why you need to use a stat like OPS, because it's "simple". It may be simple but it's also inaccurate for what you're trying to do, which is judge the value of hitters.

OPS is one of the best simple stats.  OBS should be weighted a bit more than slugging to be closer to the truth, but it's still okay.

Offline Obed_Marsh

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Re: Batting Average is a joke.
« Reply #46: July 21, 2010, 11:14:26 PM »
Simple stats have a purpose. It is a lot easier for people new to baseball or the lazy casual fan to appreciate what is going on after they learn the simple stats.

Granted in the age of massive HD scoreboards, I don't know why I cannot better stats too. Probably too busy making crap flash and showing Clint. :spaz: