The Vidro Thread (split from Mock thread)

[2k6nats]

It is clear that Vidro is a clubhouse cancer, period.  The team frankly plays better without him on a general basis.  And that is because Vidro, as well as Guillen, upsets the most important factor in baseball: team chemistry.

[spidernat]

Stats=Facts

That is actually incorrect on so many levels.  Damn, if I can I will try to find the thread with a great example of this, edit this, and post it but Stats can be decieving in so many ways and they can tell you so little outside their numbers.  I'm not making excuses for Vidro's "lack of stats" but there are flaws in the logic you think you have so down solid.

Believing a guy who hasn't been with the team majority of the season is a "poison to all" in the clubhouse is like believing the Loch Ness Monster is residing in the Potomac River.

But apples and oranges, apples and oranges.

EDIT:  Here is the thread I mentioned.  Great topic with a great discussion going.  Sad to see not many more chimed in.

http://www.nationalsforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=1669&highlight

Stats can certainly be misleading as they only tell part of the story. This is especially the case when viewed by someone more or less disconnected from the actual nuances of each game.

It is clear, at least to those of us who watch this team daily, that Vidro's batting average is misleading at best. But I don't think anyone here was suggesting that Vidro was responsible for everyone's deficiencies. I believe the poster suggested that subtracting Vidro from the Nationals' roster would be ONE way to improve the club next season but certainly not the ONLY improvement that needs to be made. Surely his lack of production does not completely affect Kearns' approach at the plate or Armas' command but this is a team game and it's neccessary for Vidro to come through with more frequency than the proverbial broken clock.

As far as his being a cancer in the clubhouse, I only feel this to be the case when his running mate (Guillen) is also in the clubhouse.

[ColtonWillems]

Yes stats can be decieving, but we all know about how Vidros stats aren't great, and that since we see him day in and day out, those stats do not lie.

But you just said stats can be decieving but stats don't lie?

Again, his stats have nothing to do with him being a supposed "clubhouse cancer" which is what he is being accused of.  Yet no one has yet given an answer that would be used in reality as to how he effects the play of others on the team.  How does Vidro effect Zimmerman's swing?  How does he effect Armas' sliders?  How does he effect how Kearns or Ryan Church runs for a flyball in the OF?

I mean, Jesus, that is quite a responsibility to put on one guy!  Would you want to be responsible for the play of every player on the team?  I sure as hell wouldn't.  I would want to take care of myself and do what I was put in to do and do it to the best of my ability.

You can't make a crutch out of one guy.  While Vidro has done hurt to the team, yes, the team has also hurt themselves time after time.  If we need evidence of that, see 2006 Gamethreads in the archives

Again this is a Vidro thread. I thought you read the title. Ok, now if you're going to tell me that Vidro saying the offense isn't producing hasn't effected the other players than you're wrong. I can't see it possible that the statements he released had no effect on the players.

Yes everyone is not playing up to their potential right now, am I blaming everyone's play on Vidro, I hope thats not the way I'm coming off. I'm just trying to show you that Vidro needs to show me why he deserves to be on this team, and if/when he does, I'll show him the respect you say he deserves, but until then, he's in my doghouse.

[2k6nats]

And besides, we are talking 7 million a year!  What a waste of money!

[spidernat]

It is clear that Vidro is a clubhouse cancer, period.  The team frankly plays better without him on a general basis.  And that is because Vidro, as well as Guillen, upsets the most important factor in baseball: team chemistry.

I think it's a bit much to declare that team chemistry is the most important factor in baseball. Surely there have been succesful teams where personalities clash and did not get along. I believe team chemistry is important but not the most important element. Team chemistry has to give way to talent. I'm sure a team can win with talent sans team chemistry but not the other way around.

[ColtonWillems]

It is clear that Vidro is a clubhouse cancer, period.  The team frankly plays better without him on a general basis.  And that is because Vidro, as well as Guillen, upsets the most important factor in baseball: team chemistry.

I think it's a bit much to declare that team chemistry is the most important factor in baseball. Surely there have been succesful teams where personalities clash and did not get along. I believe team chemistry is important but not the most important element. Team chemistry has to give way to talent. I'm sure a team can win with talent sans team chemistry but not the other way around.

It's not the most important factor, but it's up their. A team of all-stars that absolutely hate each other will not perform how they are supposed to.

[2k6nats]

It is clear that Vidro is a clubhouse cancer, period.  The team frankly plays better without him on a general basis.  And that is because Vidro, as well as Guillen, upsets the most important factor in baseball: team chemistry.

I think it's a bit much to declare that team chemistry is the most important factor in baseball. Surely there have been succesful teams where personalities clash and did not get along. I believe team chemistry is important but not the most important element. Team chemistry has to give way to talent. I'm sure a team can win with talent sans team chemistry but not the other way around.

The teams that are successful are the teams that have good chemistry and have the desire to win.  Look at the White Sox, they didnt have the best team, but had the hunger to win, and look where it got them.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

Again this is a Vidro thread. I thought you read the title. Ok, now if you're going to tell me that Vidro saying the offense isn't producing hasn't effected the other players than you're wrong. I can't see it possible that the statements he released had no effect on the players.

Yes everyone is not playing up to their potential right now, am I blaming everyone's play on Vidro, I hope thats not the way I'm coming off. I'm just trying to show you that Vidro needs to show me why he deserves to be on this team, and if/when he does, I'll show him the respect you say he deserves, but until then, he's in my doghouse.

First off, I read the title.  I know what this thread is about, hell, it spawned off a discussion I was having in the Mock thread with Letsgonats, so technically, I am one of the founding fathers of this thread.

If you accuse a player of being a "clubhouse cancer" then you are most likely going to reference others in the "clubhouse".  It's only sensible to talk about the other players and how they are being effected by Vidro.  But there is no correlation between Vidro and the swing of Zimmerman.  Physically, Vidro is doing nothing to the team to bring them down when pertaining to their own personal skills and talents.  In that case, Vidro is effecting Vidro ONLY.

As for verbal statements:  he said the fences things MONTHS ago.  I think Soriano proved him and Guillen wrong.  I find it hard to believe something as pathetic as that would cause this team to have the year they have been having.  Its absolutely ridiculous to believe that this team is that full of high school drama queens who would be that effected by a statement.  And if they don't respect Vidro as much as some say, that makes it all the more puzzling that they would take what he said to heart.  Soriano has brought up the fences recently.  He hasn't been called a "cancer" once yet.

Fair enough.  Vidro will have to prove himself to you.  Again, I'm not trying to make him out as a hero or a Hell's Angel.  I am just saying he is a veteran ballplayer who age and injury have caught up with unfortunately and he is having a really bad year.  Nothing more, nothing less.  He isn't George Washington going across the Delaware, he isn't the Anti-Christ of Baseball.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

It is clear that Vidro is a clubhouse cancer, period.  The team frankly plays better without him on a general basis.  And that is because Vidro, as well as Guillen, upsets the most important factor in baseball: team chemistry.

I think it's a bit much to declare that team chemistry is the most important factor in baseball. Surely there have been succesful teams where personalities clash and did not get along. I believe team chemistry is important but not the most important element. Team chemistry has to give way to talent. I'm sure a team can win with talent sans team chemistry but not the other way around.

It's not the most important factor, but it's up their. A team of all-stars that absolutely hate each other will not perform how they are supposed to.

   Go ask Jeter and A-Rod what they think!

[ColtonWillems]

First off, I read the title.  I know what this thread is about, hell, it spawned off a discussion I was having in the Mock thread with Letsgonats, so technically, I am one of the founding fathers of this thread.

If you accuse a player of being a "clubhouse cancer" then you are most likely going to reference others in the "clubhouse".  It's only sensible to talk about the other players and how they are being effected by Vidro.  But there is no correlation between Vidro and the swing of Zimmerman.  Physically, Vidro is doing nothing to the team to bring them down when pertaining to their own personal skills and talents.  In that case, Vidro is effecting Vidro ONLY.

As for verbal statements:  he said the fences things MONTHS ago.  I think Soriano proved him and Guillen wrong.  I find it hard to believe something as pathetic as that would cause this team to have the year they have been having.  Its absolutely ridiculous to believe that this team is that full of high school drama queens who would be that effected by a statement.  And if they don't respect Vidro as much as some say, that makes it all the more puzzling that they would take what he said to heart.  Soriano has brought up the fences recently.  He hasn't been called a "cancer" once yet.

Fair enough.  Vidro will have to prove himself to you.  Again, I'm not trying to make him out as a hero or a Hell's Angel.  I am just saying he is a veteran ballplayer who age and injury have caught up with unfortunately and he is having a really bad year.  Nothing more, nothing less.  He isn't George Washington going across the Delaware, he isn't the Anti-Christ of Baseball.

Let me bow down to you as a father of this thread   Ok now that that's over, let me get down to business  

I'm not talking about the fences comment, I'm talking about the comments he made about the offense not producing (minus zimm and sori). If I was on a baseball team, and one of my fellow teammates made a comment about how  I wasn't producing, becaause he called out everyone, including himself, on how they were not performing, I'd be pissed off and it would affect my play. Not alot, but it would definantely be in the back of my mind when I stepped into the batters box, or when I had to judge a fly ball.

In the cases of the other players, Keanrs, Zimm, LOGAN, they've all stepped it up, Vidro has not. Calling him a cancer may have been going to far, but he has definantly done nothing to help this team in the past few months. In my opinion, the only way that he can help this team is to admit that he's hurting it, and get the **** out.

[ColtonWillems]

It is clear that Vidro is a clubhouse cancer, period.  The team frankly plays better without him on a general basis.  And that is because Vidro, as well as Guillen, upsets the most important factor in baseball: team chemistry.

I think it's a bit much to declare that team chemistry is the most important factor in baseball. Surely there have been succesful teams where personalities clash and did not get along. I believe team chemistry is important but not the most important element. Team chemistry has to give way to talent. I'm sure a team can win with talent sans team chemistry but not the other way around.

It's not the most important factor, but it's up their. A team of all-stars that absolutely hate each other will not perform how they are supposed to.

   Go ask Jeter and A-Rod what they think!

No joke I was thinking of them when I made that post.

Sidenote: There's no hard feelings between us on this arguement right? It's just a nice friendly debate I hope

[Nat of the Living Dead]

No hard feelings at all.  In fact, I've enjoyed our little debate.  It has been a good one. =)

[ColtonWillems]

Haha, thanks. Because getting into "fights" with people on message boards isn't something i'm into.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

Haha, thanks. Because getting into "fights" with people on message boards isn't something i'm into.

Nor I but I have been accused of being a little more passionate or "heated" than most.  If I ever really get too bad, please feel free to

[The Chief]

It is clear that Vidro is a clubhouse cancer, period.  The team frankly plays better without him on a general basis.  And that is because Vidro, as well as Guillen, upsets the most important factor in baseball: team chemistry.

While I agree that Vidro's numbers are lackluster, his BA is deceiving, and he isn't worth $7m a year to this team, I'd have to disagree with you on the clubhouse cancer point.  This somehow implies that he is abrasive and hard to get along with, and that he doesn't get along with the other players.  I have seen no evidence of this.  He just isn't a very good baseball player anymore.

[rileyn]

Wow, somehow this entire debate spawned from a comment I made about being happy with Nook Logan wanting to be here, and then NOLTD suggested that he wished the scrappy attitude would rub off on the regulars.  I then said that I think parting ways with Vidro would be a great start = addition by subtraction.  

I stand by that comment.  I didn't say he was the anti-christ....I just think he hurts the team more than he helps it when you consider his salary versus his productivity and health.  I was tipped off by Kenzafan last year when he kept pushing to get rid of Vidro.  At the time, I hadn't followed the Expos prior to the move to Wash so I kept an eye on it.  Low and behold, we played much worse with him in the lineup last year than we did when he was on the DL.  In fact, as soon as he came back our swoon began (Mets series after July 4).  I don't think it was Vidro's fault, but it sure stuck out like a sore thumb.  Coincidence?  Maybe, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt because he was not healthy.

In 2006, it's been well documented that our record is MUCH worse with Vidro, than without.  As a #3 hitter for most of the year, he was counter productive.  I guess you could make the argument that it is our managers fault to have him in the 3 hole.  Either way, I think we would be better off with a change at 2B.....at least I think it's a good place to start.  I would bet that if Vidro didn't get hurt prior to the trading deadline he would already be gone.

Don't even get me started on his defense.  I don't think we need to spend much time debating that one.

[LetsGoNats]

Sidenote: There's no hard feelings between us on this arguement right? It's just a nice friendly debate I hope

Hope there's none this way either, NOTLD.  

Will you really send me a box of cookies if I send you my address?

[Nat of the Living Dead]

Sidenote: There's no hard feelings between us on this arguement right? It's just a nice friendly debate I hope

Hope there's none this way either, NOTLD.  

Will you really send me a box of cookies if I send you my address?

No negativity here either.  Maybe for Christmas.  :wink:  

[LetsGoNats]

Been out of the loop for a couple days on business travel in San Diego, but I see that Vidr0-4 actually had a great game & even came through in the clutch.  Since I hate on him a lot, I want to make sure that I give him credit for coming through.   I hope it continues.

[JMW IV]

I don't think Vidro is a clubhouse Cancer.

HOWEVER, I *do* think that his time with this team is over, and that he should not be in our future plans as a Second Baseman.

His future lies in the AL as a DH.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

He did well yet again last night and got us a win.  Kudos to Vidro.

I see Vidro staying on in 07' as a bench/back-up player for 2B.  A lot of people are thinking possibly (SO)riano or Casto but I have a feeling it's going to be Lopez moved to 2B while ole Guzman returns.

His health, age, and contract are just a huge turn off to other teams at this point.

He will be with us in 07' and afterwards, I hope he gracefully retires.  He has had a great run.  He deserves some fun in the sun on the beach sipping drinks from coconut husks with little umbrellas.

[expos96]

My hands are clapping on the good performance of Jose yesterday.
Let's hope he's proving that he can has an added value for this team this year and the 2 more years of his contract.
Then perhaps we have to conclude that his recovery of the surgery just taked much more time than he, physisians and we could imagined.

In our heart we all know that a good Jose is always an addition. I hope we will see al lot more of him next year as a Nat.

Go Jose GO.

[tomterp]

Wow, I thought we only had one more year of Vidro.  He's scheduled to make $7.5m in 2007, and $8.5m in 2008.  Man, what an anchor to have to drag around.

[JMW IV]

Wow, I thought we only had one more year of Vidro.  He's scheduled to make $7.5m in 2007, and $8.5m in 2008.  Man, what an anchor to have to drag around.

8.5 million is an anchor, yet 15 Million is friggin AWESOME!