Poll

Who will be the first pitcher to throw a quality start for the Nats?

Lannan
0 (0%)
Marquis
2 (5.3%)
Wang
0 (0%)
Zimmermann
20 (52.6%)
Olsen
10 (26.3%)
Detwiler
6 (15.8%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Author Topic: Mocking Wang Watch  (Read 26067 times)

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Offline cmdterps44

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Decent 3 innings. Sounds like that run should have never scored if there were no passed ball.

Offline NatsDad14

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Martin is our only other AAAA pitcher I believe has a shot. But I feel he is in the wrong place, and needs another 3 months or even a season in AAA to learn and work without the pressure, facing major league talent and in an atmosphere where learning how to pitch is emphasized over winning. While he hasn't collapsed, I don't think he'll ever reach his full potential if they think he's ready now and keep him in the majors while he puts up average numbers. He's capable of above average stuff, and unfortunately his talent level is actually hurting him right now.

Lannan, as I've said many times, will never be a SP. He doesn't have the pitches nor the durability to pitch six innings. If they do not convert him to relief, he's a lost cause. As a reliever I feel he could be utterly dominant.

Martin has nothing to learn in AAA. He has already dominated in AAA. I don't see how you can say he needs more time in AAA when you factor in his age and performance. Plus, he has been very good as a starter with the Nats. Let him learn in the big leagues. If you keep sending him down, how is he going to learn how to get big league hitters out?

The idea that Lannan doesn't have the durability to be a 6 inning pitcher is ridiculous. He was a 6 IP in his first 2 seasons then had a 6.3 IP season last year. The fact that you think the problem with him is durability tells me that you are way off on all of your assessments. The reason he didn't go 6 IP this year was because he sucked at getting hitters out, not his durability.

Offline cmdterps44

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Martin has nothing to learn in AAA. He has already dominated in AAA. I don't see how you can say he needs more time in AAA when you factor in his age and performance. Plus, he has been very good as a starter with the Nats. Let him learn in the big leagues. If you keep sending him down, how is he going to learn how to get big league hitters out?

The idea that Lannan doesn't have the durability to be a 6 inning pitcher is ridiculous. He was a 6 IP in his first 2 seasons then had a 6.3 IP season last year. The fact that you think the problem with him is durability tells me that you are way off on all of your assessments. The reason he didn't go 6 IP this year was because he sucked at getting hitters out, not his durability.

These.

So far Martin has been the better of the three (Stammen, Atilano, Martin) IMO. He is doing just fine up here, so far. (knock on wood)

As for Lannan, his first two seasons have shown he can be a major league starting pitcher. Hell, if he were on another team the last two years his stats would be 5x better. I don't know what happened to him this year but he definitely could be a great back end starting pitcher.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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I think you pencil in Martin at the #4 SP slot for the rest of the season.

Lannan had results far better than his actual pitching for two years.  This year he couldn't pull a rabbit out of the hat every freaking game.  His very best is bottom of the rotation place holder.

Offline NatsDad14

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I think you pencil in Martin at the #4 SP slot for the rest of the season.

Lannan had results far better than his actual pitching for two years.  This year he couldn't pull a rabbit out of the hat every freaking game.  His very best is bottom of the rotation place holder.
The only difference is that Lannan's actual pitching this year was a lot worse than the previous 2 years. His K rate took a plunge. His BB/9 rate went from good to horrific. His GB% is down. He could get away with a 1.40 K/BB, but not half of that. It's too bad Lannan is damaged goods now. I would have loved to see if he could outperform his peripherals forever. Now his peripherals are way too bad.

Offline spidernat

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Hell, if he were on another team the last two years his stats would be 5x better.

What stats are you talking about (K/BB, ERA, wins)?

Offline cmdterps44

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What stats are you talking about (K/BB, ERA, wins)?

The stats that people "care about" :lol: The stats that wouldn't make him a better pitcher: ERA and wins... (Its usually what people refer too when speaking of John Lannan).

I know he'd keep the same "actual" stats in WHIP, K/BB etc etc... Maybe they'd be slightly adjusted for the better with a defense that backed him up but who knows.

Offline spidernat

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The stats that people "care about" :lol: The stats that wouldn't make him a better pitcher: ERA and wins... (Its usually what people refer too when speaking of John Lannan).

So he would've averaged 45 wins per season and an ERA under 1 pitching for another team.  :?

Offline cmdterps44

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So he would've averaged 45 wins per season and an ERA under 1 pitching for another.  :?

Yeah, something like that.

Offline spidernat

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Yeah, something like that.

You sound suspiciously like SF.  :lol:

Offline PANatsFan

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Martin has nothing to learn in AAA. He has already dominated in AAA. I don't see how you can say he needs more time in AAA when you factor in his age and performance. Plus, he has been very good as a starter with the Nats. Let him learn in the big leagues. If you keep sending him down, how is he going to learn how to get big league hitters out?

Martin DOES get them out. He's getting a lot of K's, which is surprising, and he throws a bazillion strikes. He's a control guy that actually maintains the control, he was an awesome pickup.

Offline hammondsnats

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detwiler, lannan and chico all with pretty good starts last time out.

jordan zimmermann deserves his own sentence, he seems like he's getting closer :pray:

Offline Coladar

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Martin has nothing to learn in AAA. He has already dominated in AAA. I don't see how you can say he needs more time in AAA when you factor in his age and performance. Plus, he has been very good as a starter with the Nats. Let him learn in the big leagues. If you keep sending him down, how is he going to learn how to get big league hitters out?

The idea that Lannan doesn't have the durability to be a 6 inning pitcher is ridiculous. He was a 6 IP in his first 2 seasons then had a 6.3 IP season last year. The fact that you think the problem with him is durability tells me that you are way off on all of your assessments. The reason he didn't go 6 IP this year was because he sucked at getting hitters out, not his durability.

As far as Lannan goes, I'm not talking about durability physically. He has consistently throughout his career, and it's gotten worse as time goes on, been able to get the order out the first time through and the second and third falls apart. I don't believe it's a physical issue, but he is not "durable". Meaning he is not able to last, consistently, for a duration without degradation. Now if it's a mental durability, or simply the opposing team able to make significant adjustments after seeing him once, I have no idea. But he is not a six inning pitcher, as a majority of his meltdowns come after he's gone through the lineup once. Don't get me wrong, he's had first inning meltdowns too, but his main problem is the order the second or third time.

As far as Martin, he's a capable #4 right now. I think you put him in a less pressure intense situation where the focus is on learning and he's facing far less talent, thus can throw some of his pitches which are sub-par to work on without worry, he could be a #3 easily. Batters are hitting .287 off of him, he's had a couple rocky games. He had a long time in the minor leagues, and he needed a promotion to the majors to see how his stuff fared against major league talent. I'm just saying now that they see where a couple of his holes are, send him back for a very short time to polish them off. He is capable of more than a #4 pitcher. Don't keep him up here for good just because he is performing like an "average pitcher."

This is the entire problem with this team. Because our farm system was so decimated, and then the team so bad, we have accepted a culture of bringing guys far too quickly. Then when they perform at an average level, we embrace that as being acceptable, all the while forgetting that many of them could be capable of being a #2 or 3, 3.5-4 ERA pitcher instead of #4 or 5, 4-5.5 ERA guy with just a little more time in AAA. If Lannan isn't proof of that, I don't know what is. Or Martis. Or soon to be Detwiler. Not every pitcher is Strasburg or Storen, well polished out of college. Martin would absolutely benefit with another 3 months in AAA.

Offline PC

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Quote
Staten Island native Jason Marquis is on the comeback trail for the Washington Nationals
Published: Monday, July 12, 2010, 7:13 PM
Daniel O'Leary

Jason Marquis struggled early this season with the Nationals, but is looking forward to a second half resurgence with Washington.
This time last year, Jason Marquis was a National League All Star and rooting on his former Little League, South Shore, in the Little League World Series.

Now, the Tottenville high school product is recovering from elbow surgery, and hoping to return to his 2009 form to help the Washington Nationals make a second-half surge.

Marquis has been rehabbing the arm at home five days a week and will see his operating surgeon, Tim Krenchek on Thursday, according to the Washington Post.
"This organization has been top-notch, phenomenal," Marquis said to the Post. "Putting the trust in me to do my work and get back strong and quick and still be around my family, with a smile on my face."

Marquis threw a live batting practice session on Sunday and will likely begin a rehab assignment with the Gulf Coast League Nationals very soon. In the very same Washington Post story, Marquis said he is feeling good:

"It's getting better and better," Marquis said. "No setbacks."

The Nationals may also get back talented young pitcher Jordan Zimmerman during the second half and have Chien Ming-Wang and Orlando Hernandez preparing for the second half in the minor leagues.

When coupled with Marquis' return and rookie phenom Stephen Strasburg, the Nationals could play their way back in the hunt in the second half.

I like the way he thinks!  :D

Offline HalfSmokes

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We're going to ride Marquis to the playoffs :glug:

Offline CJames0569

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I'll have some of that

Offline NJ Ave

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Well you could always look at the stats to judge whether Lannan is a 6 inning pitcher or not, or is that too nerdy?

Career stats for OPS against:
First time facing opponent - .650
Second time - .800
Third time - .844
Fourth plus time - .835

So yeah, I'd say that we gets progressively worse as the game goes on. By the third time they face Lannan, the average hitter is 22% better than normal.

Offline NatsDad14

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This is the entire problem with this team. Because our farm system was so decimated, and then the team so bad, we have accepted a culture of bringing guys far too quickly. Then when they perform at an average level, we embrace that as being acceptable, all the while forgetting that many of them could be capable of being a #2 or 3, 3.5-4 ERA pitcher instead of #4 or 5, 4-5.5 ERA guy with just a little more time in AAA. If Lannan isn't proof of that, I don't know what is. Or Martis. Or soon to be Detwiler. Not every pitcher is Strasburg or Storen, well polished out of college. Martin would absolutely benefit with another 3 months in AAA.

Having Lannan stay in AAA for another year would not have done him good. He was already performing well in the big leagues in his first 3 seasons. If a player is performing in the big leagues, no reason to send him down especially for a guy like Lannan who has limited potential. The only way he will succeed in the big leagues is to send him out vs. Big league hitters so he can learn to pitch. Learning to pitch to AAA hitters will do him no good. For a guy like Strasburg, it's understandable not to rush him because of his stuff. I would bet my life that Lannan would not have been a 3.50 ERA if he stayed in AAA a little longer.

Rushing pitchers to the big leagues is not even an awful idea. Lots of pitchers struggled early on and took their lumps before becoming good pitchers like Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Halladay, and Santana.

Offline Coladar

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Having Lannan stay in AAA for another year would not have done him good. He was already performing well in the big leagues in his first 3 seasons. If a player is performing in the big leagues, no reason to send him down especially for a guy like Lannan who has limited potential. The only way he will succeed in the big leagues is to send him out vs. Big league hitters so he can learn to pitch. Learning to pitch to AAA hitters will do him no good. For a guy like Strasburg, it's understandable not to rush him because of his stuff. I would bet my life that Lannan would not have been a 3.50 ERA if he stayed in AAA a little longer.

Rushing pitchers to the big leagues is not even an awful idea. Lots of pitchers struggled early on and took their lumps before becoming good pitchers like Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Halladay, and Santana.

We'll agree to disagree on Lannan. I was as high as everyone else was on him and wanted him brought up way back when. But I do feel it might have been a bit too fast, and that it is partially to blame for his downward spiral. He was dominant the few starts he had in AAA, there is no doubt about that. And I don't even think the organization made an error based on the information they had at the time. I just think an extra two months for Lannan in AAA might, and I stress might, have made a difference, since I think 60% of his problems are in his head. Whether it's just a typical head case, or if it's due to the inordinate amount of pressure the club put on him so soon, going from A to ace in a very short time. Either way a longer stay in AAA might have benefited him.

He had 8 starts in Potomac, 5 in AA and 6 in AAA. Thats pretty damn fast, and although his performance at the time definitely merited a promotion, hindsight, in my opinion, shows some of his problems might be to blame on such a short stint. Thus the point I've been trying to make. You never regret giving a player extra time in the minors, even if they look ready. It's never a mistake to give them an extra couple months. At this point every player in our farm system even remotely close, a year or so from the majors, has been on the major league team already. And it's clearly damaged at least a couple careers quite seriously, Martis in particular. I just wish we'd err on the side of giving them extra time to develop instead of trying to force them up to fill holes.

Offline Coladar

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Well you could always look at the stats to judge whether Lannan is a 6 inning pitcher or not, or is that too nerdy?

Career stats for OPS against:
First time facing opponent - .650
Second time - .800
Third time - .844
Fourth plus time - .835

So yeah, I'd say that we gets progressively worse as the game goes on. By the third time they face Lannan, the average hitter is 22% better than normal.

No, definitely not too nerdy, and it displays perfectly what I was trying to get across. Lannan is definitely not a durable pitcher, and he would do so incredibly well if they just bit the bullet and converted him to relief. It makes sense, he'd be perfect and it would take very little time to get him back up here as a reliever, and I'm not sure he's ever going to be able to survive if he stays a starting pitcher his entire career. He just can't face guys the second and third times through, for whatever reason.

Offline Terpfan76

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No, definitely not too nerdy, and it displays perfectly what I was trying to get across. Lannan is definitely not a durable pitcher, and he would do so incredibly well if they just bit the bullet and converted him to relief. It makes sense, he'd be perfect and it would take very little time to get him back up here as a reliever, and I'm not sure he's ever going to be able to survive if he stays a starting pitcher his entire career. He just can't face guys the second and third times through, for whatever reason.


What it comes down to is you are using the wrong word. It's not a question of durability as Lannan has not had a lot of injury problems and he's had little problem making it through 6 innings, the issue is he just doesn't have great stuff and as previously stated, he doesn't have an "out pitch". That can be learned and Lannan seems to be the type of player that will what is needed to get better. True, his stuff may never improve, but there have been plenty of pitchers that could overcome substandard stuff and become quality middle/back of the rotation starters.

Offline sportsfan882

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Zmann's line tonight for Potomac:

4 IP 6 H 1 R 0 ER 0 BB 4 K

Offline houston-nat

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Decent 3 innings. Sounds like that run should have never scored if there were no passed ball.

No, the passed ball was in inning 1 and the run scored was in inning 3. The run scored was the result of an Olsen wild pitch and Olsen throwing error...

Offline cmdterps44

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No, the passed ball was in inning 1 and the run scored was in inning 3. The run scored was the result of an Olsen wild pitch and Olsen throwing error...

Whatever. No wild pitch and there would be no run but you can say that about anything. The glory of baseball.

Offline Coladar

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What it comes down to is you are using the wrong word. It's not a question of durability as Lannan has not had a lot of injury problems and he's had little problem making it through 6 innings, the issue is he just doesn't have great stuff and as previously stated, he doesn't have an "out pitch". That can be learned and Lannan seems to be the type of player that will what is needed to get better. True, his stuff may never improve, but there have been plenty of pitchers that could overcome substandard stuff and become quality middle/back of the rotation starters.

Perhaps in baseball terms I'm using the wrong word, as durability is so closely tied to someone physically wearing down. Going by the definition of the word, however, it fits. Per Merriam Webster "able to exist for a long time without significant degradation." The longer Lannan pitches, the worse he gets. I'm not disagreeing I couldn't have found a better word, but I still think technically it is applicable.

That said, the reason I'm posting is not for that. Zimmermann is simply incredible. Nearly a 50 pitch performance, 4 very solid innings, no walks, on only his third start after Tommy John 11 months ago?!? This is starting to look like one of the quickest and most impressive post-TJ surgery comebacks ever. It seems quite a few pitchers never pitch the same again, others have to learn totally new ways to get outs to compensate for physical changes... And regardless, very, very few are pitching in 11 months. I was afraid the injury would stop Zmann from becoming the ace we all thought he would. If anything, it looks like he is better than ever. Unbelievable comeback.