The Garage

[tomterp]

It's ridiculous.  At least Toyota is admitting the fault now instead of blaming it on the floormats.

Calsgr8 had the issue pegged last week when I was still clinging to the floormat theory.     

[PANatsFan]

It has nothing to do with Mac or not, laptops are toys.

You forgot

[PANatsFan]

Question:
My early model Highlander has a 4 cylinder. It has no "get up and go" at all. It really strains. It also guzzles gas.

My dad's  Sienna, same chassis, I think same engine, from the late 90's, has a lot more pep. The Sienna body is the same weight or heavier than the Highlander, I reckon.

What gives? Would a tune up help, or a fuel injector additive? I am far from expert in these matters.

[Nathan]

Question:
My early model Highlander has a 4 cylinder. It has no "get up and go" at all. It really strains. It also guzzles gas.

My dad's  Sienna, same chassis, I think same engine, from the late 90's, has a lot more pep. The Sienna body is the same weight or heavier than the Highlander, I reckon.

What gives? Would a tune up help, or a fuel injector additive? I am far from expert in these matters.

The late 90's (ie 98 & 99) Sienna was V6 only I think.

Checked Wikipedia, the first gen Sienna (1998-2003) only came with a 3.0 liter V6.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Sienna#First_generation_.281998-2003.29

[PANatsFan]

The late 90's (ie 98 & 99) Sienna was V6 only I think.

Oh yeah. It was their Previa that was a 4 cylinder.

So is it just that 4 cylinder is too weak to drag the Highlander around? That's the prevailing theory once the Sienna data point is removed.

[Nathan]

Oh yeah. It was their Previa that was a 4 cylinder.

So is it just that 4 cylinder is too weak to drag the Highlander around? That's the prevailing theory once the Sienna data point is removed.

Most likely.  Is it an AWD model?  AWD systems add a lot of weight.  Plus it's a fairly large SUV, I think it is a midsize class.  I think it has a 2.4 liter with 160 hp.  That's a lot of weight for that size engine.

Is this a recent loss of pep, or has it always felt that way?

[PANatsFan]

Most likely.  Is it an AWD model?  AWD systems add a lot of weight.  Plus it's a fairly large SUV, I think it is a midsize class.  I think it has a 2.4 liter with 160 hp.  That's a lot of weight for that size engine.

Is this a recent loss of pep, or has it always felt that way?

Nope, its 2WD, 4 cylinder I don't look a gift horse in the mouth though.

It's always been sluggish but we got it used, and the other guy didn't know anything about cars (mixed 2 grades of antifreeze so we had to flush the whole system). It's gotten worse recently, and the fuel economy really bugs me.

[Nathan]

Nope, its 2WD, 4 cylinder I don't look a gift horse in the mouth though.

It's always been sluggish but we got it used, and the other guy didn't know anything about cars (mixed 2 grades of antifreeze so we had to flush the whole system). It's gotten worse recently, and the fuel economy really bugs me.

Then there might be something up.

I have had success when I added a bottle of that injector cleaner stuff to my gas tank back when I had a Civic.  I did notice an improvement in power and in the smoothness of the engine.  That was on a car with over 130,000 miles.  I also did it to my Cavalier Z24, though the effect was not as noticeable.  That car had 90,000 miles, so maybe not as much "gunk" to clean out.

Basically I added it and was rough on the car for the whole tank, lots of WOT acceleration to "blow the carbon build up out"

It's worth a shot to see if it improves anything, it's only like what, $4 a bottle or something?

[PANatsFan]

Ok cool - it's got 100k on it

[HalfSmokes]

Apparently the Toyota problem was in the peddle- what I don't understand is if the problem was mechanical and not in the computer, why didn't people shift into neutral?

[The Chief]

Apparently the Toyota problem was in the peddle- what I don't understand is if the problem was mechanical and not in the computer, why didn't people shift into neutral?

I've also wondered this every time they play a news bit about people stomping on the brakes and flying off a cliff.  I'm guessing people just don't know anything about their cars.  I'm pretty sure that even if it were a computer problem neutral would still work in an auto.

Oh well, just another reason to drive stick

[tomterp]

I've also wondered this every time they play a news bit about people stomping on the brakes and flying off a cliff.

Answer: Darwinism.

Actually, Car and Driver (most recent issue) tested a Camry, along with a couple of other cars, one a highly powered Mustang, and in all cases brakes > engine.  In other words, brakes can easily overpower an engine stuck at high speed revs.  The Camry stopped just a bit longer than it would have taken had the engine not been full on.  The Mustang was quite a bit harder to stop, but stop it did.

Obviously, in all cases stopping distances are increased if you're fighting the engine, but still.  Many car makers, (Audi for one) have an automatic engine rev-down ability when brakes are applied, that is, no matter what the gas pedal is doing, the engine will drop to idle speed if brakes are being applied.  Toyota / Lexus don't have this, but will soon.   

[The Chief]

You aren't supposed to quote my un-PC answer, Tom

Interesting about the rev-down.  Neutral still should've done the trick regardless though.

[HalfSmokes]

Actually, Car and Driver (most recent issue) tested a Camry, along with a couple of other cars, one a highly powered Mustang, and in all cases brakes > engine.  In other words, brakes can easily overpower an engine stuck at high speed revs.  The Camry stopped just a bit longer than it would have taken had the engine not been full on.  The Mustang was quite a bit harder to stop, but stop it did.

Obviously, in all cases stopping distances are increased if you're fighting the engine, but still.  Many car makers, (Audi for one) have an automatic engine rev-down ability when brakes are applied, that is, no matter what the gas pedal is doing, the engine will drop to idle speed if brakes are being applied.  Toyota / Lexus don't have this, but will soon.   

I would think that eventually either 1- the brake pad would get worn down to nothing and the car would start flying again or 2- the treads would get stripped off of the tires and they would burst because redlining combinded with heaviy breaking for long enough to run the car out of gas would create a lot of friction

[tomterp]

I would think that eventually either 1- the brake pad would get worn down to nothing and the car would start flying again or 2- the treads would get stripped off of the tires and they would burst because redlining combinded with heaviy breaking for long enough to run the car out of gas would create a lot of friction

Well in the case of the Mustang, and they were going over 100 MPH before applying the brakes, the brakes were smoking like crazy, but still stopped the car eventually.  And this was a car with over 500 HP. 

And to Dunnkey's point, neutral should always be available as a gear selection.  And discerning drivers just push in the clutch, anyway.

[HalfSmokes]

Well in the case of the Mustang, and they were going over 100 MPH before applying the brakes, the brakes were smoking like crazy, but still stopped the car eventually.  And this was a car with over 500 HP. 

I'm just thinking that if the accelator still sticks, you would have to keep your foot on the brake until the car runs out of gas

[NatsAddict]

Apparently the Toyota problem was in the peddle- what I don't understand is if the problem was mechanical and not in the computer, why didn't people shift into neutral?

I had a damned Chevy Beretta (I know, redundant) in the late 80's that had the accelerator stick.  It was a mechanical problem.  Unfortunately, it happened when I was going to visit Sally in the hospital, so I had to complete the trip shifting in and out of 1st and neutral, and yanking on the parking brake.  When I got to the hospital and got out, I was nearly overcome by the smell of the burning brakes.  

That damned thing blew 3 engines before it hit 30,000 miles (in all fairness, the 3rd one was not a Chevy engine and had a lot to do with Spears Chevy in Purcerville going out of business), had a recall for the hood flying open, had a recall for seatbelts connected to the door that could pull you out of the car during an accident, and had the entire electrical system crap out andd need to be replaced.  I sold it to my great uncle, and not even a week later it blew its 4th engine (another real Chevy engine) and caught on fire (I hadn't even cashed the check, so I burned it, too).  It died at 36,000 miles. The 1985 Corolla I sold to Dad when I bought that Chevy finally died last year with somewhere around 300,000 miles on the original 4-cylinder engine.

[blue911]

Well in the case of the Mustang, and they were going over 100 MPH before applying the brakes, the brakes were smoking like crazy, but still stopped the car eventually.  And this was a car with over 500 HP. 

And to Dunnkey's point, neutral should always be available as a gear selection.  And discerning drivers just push in the clutch, anyway.

+1

[tomterp]

I'm just thinking that if the accelator still sticks, you would have to keep your foot on the brake until the car runs out of gas

I got ya.  Of course, if you're stopped as opposed to going 120 MPH, it's easier to think of alternatives, like shifting out of drive, or turning off the key. 

[tomterp]

I had a damned Chevy Beretta (I know, redundant) in the late 80's

I thought they were a good looking car at the time.  My brother had one, I think it did have a lot of problems but don't remember the blown engines.  I'll have to see what sort of life he got out of it.

[PANatsFan]

I got ya.  Of course, if you're stopped as opposed to going 120 MPH, it's easier to think of alternatives, like shifting out of drive, or turning off the key. 

Right. It's freaking smug to think that you would have been sooo much smarter and killed the engine. The latest accident was a car driven by a highway patrolman, not a Sunday driver.

[HalfSmokes]

Right. It's freaking smug to think that you would have been sooo much smarter and killed the engine. The latest accident was a car driven by a highway patrolman, not a Sunday driver.

I think it depends, if you are used to driving standard, shifting into neutral might occur to you. If you're used to automatic, no way. I'm really surpirsed that when I hear stories about this, no one is screaming - "if this happens shift into neurtal" especially Toyota

[tomterp]

Right. It's freaking smug to think that you would have been sooo much smarter and killed the engine. The latest accident was a car driven by a highway patrolman, not a Sunday driver.

I believe the vast majority of such accidents are due to the driver stomping on the gas, but convinced they are actually stomping on the brake.  Some of Natsaddict's snowbirds might tend to make that sort of error, but you'd think a cop would know the difference.  Still, as C&D showed, the brakes will easily stop a car no matter what the engine is doing, as long as the brakes are working, that is.

[The Chief]

And to Dunnkey's point, neutral should always be available as a gear selection.  And discerning drivers just push in the clutch, anyway.

I think that's more or less what I was hinting at   But even in an auto, putting the lever on N should work just as well.

Right. It's freaking smug to think that you would have been sooo much smarter and killed the engine. The latest accident was a car driven by a highway patrolman, not a Sunday driver.

So because he was a highway patrolman he's immune to panic or irrational action and automatically a smarter/better driver than all of us?

Some of the reported incidents involve running lights and hitting trees, in which case there wasn't enough time for any given action to make much difference, but in the case of the people who literally called in and where screaming into the phone as they were driving down the highway at 120mph, a little knowledge could have saved lives.  Ditto to the people in KY who drove into a river.

[PANatsFan]

So because he was a highway patrolman he's immune to panic or irrational action and automatically a smarter/better driver than all of us?

No, the opposite. These people aren't rubes for not stopping the car. They are human; and even a really well trained driver didn't act quickly enough.

But highway patrolmen have a lot of advanced training like how to use their cars are battering rams, how to corner a driver in a high speed chase, etc.