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Offline PC

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Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Topic Start: August 26, 2009, 01:37:13 PM »
Quote
Let's wade through Apple's laundry list of borrowed features and derivative works in the new Mac OS.

Randall C. Kennedy, InfoWorld
Tuesday, August 25, 2009 07:00 PM PDT

"Where's the beef?" That's the idiom that jumps to mind as I work my way through Galen Gruman's "The 7 best features in Mac OS X Snow Leopard." I knew the features list would be lean -- Apple has deliberately undersold Snow Leopard by pitching it as a relatively minor release -- but please! Gruman's article reads like a laundry list of borrowed features and derivative works. It's as if someone at Apple grabbed a copy of the Windows 7 beta and simply Xeroxed the release notes.

For example:

64-bitness: Yippee,! Apple finally goes 64-bit -- BFD! As a Windows user, I've been livin' la vida 64-bit for more than three years. Vista was the first mainstream desktop OS to deliver a viable 64-bit experience, and Windows 7 has taken this migration further by making it the preferred flavor for business users.

Meanwhile, Apple can't even deliver a fully 64-bit implementation. Snow Leopard boots into a 32-bit kernel by default -- something about a lack of 64-bit device drivers, which is ironic when you consider how small a hardware ecosystem Apple must govern when compared to Microsoft and its burden of having to run on just about anything with an Intel-compatible CPU.

Exposé Dock Integration: This one's a joke, right? Am I to understand that Apple is just getting around to adding this? Microsoft has been offering this type of functionality (aka thumbnail preview) for years, and Windows 7 has taken the concept further with Aero Peek, Shake, and Snap. It sounds like Apple's Xerox machine suffered a paper jam with this one -- or perhaps it's just stuck in one of those famous Mac OS X infinite loops.

Expanded PDF Preview: If this constitutes a "feature," then Apple must really be grasping! I mean, Windows has supported PDF file preview -- via an installable ifilter module -- ever since Desktop Search debuted pre-Vista. In fact, the ability to seamlessly preview third-party content has been a staple of the Windows experience for years. So while I'm glad to see Apple finally getting on the ball with its PDF handling (I hear the updated viewer lets you basically do away with the piggish Adobe Reader for most common tasks), I'm still utterly stunned by the fact that this is even an issue. Provide a free (i.e. not trialware) XPS document viewer with Mac OS X and then maybe I'll get excited.

QuickTime Pro: Can you believe the Apple folks used to charge for this thing? I guess they saw the writing on the wall, what with Microsoft releasing yet another excellent iteration of its free Movie Maker application. Way to play that reactionary card, Apple!

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Mac OS X Snow Leopard is truly an underwhelming release, one that borrows most of its "new" ideas from Windows Vista. Meanwhile, Microsoft continues to drive OS evolution forward, introducing a raft of truly innovative features with Windows 7. (Check out J. Peter Bruzzese's video of the top 20 Windows 7 features for examples.) The new Taskbar puts Apple's clumsy Mac OS X Dock to shame, while its enhanced support for multicore CPUs (see my earlier research on this topic) means that even non-optimized code gets a boost -- no Grand Central Dispatch tweaking required.

I've often referred to Windows 7 as "Vista R2," an incremental follow-up release that was mostly about righting the wrongs of its predecessor. Viewed in these terms, Mac OS X Snow Leopard is more like a service pack: a collection of bug fixes and minor functional enhancements that, quite frankly, should have been in the original release. As such, Snow Leopard is nothing to get all excited about; it's not worth even the modest "upgrade" price Apple is asking.


http://www.pcworld.com/article/170783/snow_leopard_is_a_pale_imitation_of_windows_7.html

Offline PC

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #1: August 26, 2009, 01:38:01 PM »
FINALLY!  Somebody speaks the truth!

Suck on that, Steve Jobs!

Offline The Chief

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #2: August 26, 2009, 03:37:46 PM »
Haha, inflammatory article+++!

Doesn't matter what this or the inevitable response article says, opinions and flames will break along party lines as per the norm in "Mac vs PC" e-peenor contests.

Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #3: August 26, 2009, 04:18:15 PM »
I have no idea what any of that means. All I know is I will never go back to PC after rocking the magnificence of a MAC.

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #4: August 26, 2009, 04:22:01 PM »
I have no idea what any of that means. All I know is I will never go back to PC after rocking the magnificence of a MAC.
this.

Offline Frau Mau

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #5: August 26, 2009, 04:33:43 PM »
I have no idea what any of that means. All I know is I will never go back to PC after rocking the magnificence of a MAC.

We just bought a MACbook Pro and I really like it. It's just amazing.

Offline The Chief

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #6: August 26, 2009, 04:34:19 PM »
I have no idea what any of that means. All I know is I will never go back to PC after rocking the magnificence of a MAC.

Pffff.  PCs are so much more versatile.  I see the appeal of Macs, but I could never use them as my primary computer, much less my sole computer.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #7: August 26, 2009, 04:35:21 PM »
Apple copying Microsoft, what a farce.  Whatever, I'll continue on my merry way happily booting OS X, Windows 7, and Linux side by side on the same machine.  But just to throw kerosene on the fire:

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64-bitness: Yippee,! Apple finally goes 64-bit -- BFD! As a Windows user, I've been livin' la vida 64-bit for more than three years. Vista was the first mainstream desktop OS to deliver a viable 64-bit experience, and Windows 7 has taken this migration further by making it the preferred flavor for business users.
There has been "64-bitness" on the Mac for a while, but I agree that it has taken them too long to get everything running 64 bit.

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Exposé Dock Integration: This one's a joke, right? Am I to understand that Apple is just getting around to adding this? Microsoft has been offering this type of functionality (aka thumbnail preview) for years, and Windows 7 has taken the concept further with Aero Peek, Shake, and Snap. It sounds like Apple's Xerox machine suffered a paper jam with this one -- or perhaps it's just stuck in one of those famous Mac OS X infinite loops.
Oh please.  Apple has had Expose since Panther was released in 2003.  MS copied the idea in some of the effects of Aero when Vista was released.  Microsoft improved on some of the ideas, so now Apple is copying back some of Microsoft's ideas.  Both companies have copied from each other and to argue otherwise futile.

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Expanded PDF Preview: If this constitutes a "feature," then Apple must really be grasping! I mean, Windows has supported PDF file preview -- via an installable ifilter module -- ever since Desktop Search debuted pre-Vista. In fact, the ability to seamlessly preview third-party content has been a staple of the Windows experience for years. So while I'm glad to see Apple finally getting on the ball with its PDF handling (I hear the updated viewer lets you basically do away with the piggish Adobe Reader for most common tasks), I'm still utterly stunned by the fact that this is even an issue. Provide a free (i.e. not trialware) XPS document viewer with Mac OS X and then maybe I'll get excited.
What?  You mean you can install something to get functionality on Windows that OS X doesn't have by default?  I'm not even sure what he is on about here, and I'm guessing any consumer could care less about this as long as Preview (the OS X app that comes with every install) opens PDF files, which it has been able to do plus many other file types since at least my first experience on a Mac with Tiger.

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QuickTime Pro: Can you believe the Apple folks used to charge for this thing? I guess they saw the writing on the wall, what with Microsoft releasing yet another excellent iteration of its free Movie Maker application. Way to play that reactionary card, Apple!
It was stupid to charge for QuickTime Pro.  Of course using Microsoft's Movie Maker application as an argument would have to be met with the free iMovie app that comes with every Mac and is much more powerful than Movie Maker.

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I've often referred to Windows 7 as "Vista R2," an incremental follow-up release that was mostly about righting the wrongs of its predecessor. Viewed in these terms, Mac OS X Snow Leopard is more like a service pack: a collection of bug fixes and minor functional enhancements that, quite frankly, should have been in the original release. As such, Snow Leopard is nothing to get all excited about; it's not worth even the modest "upgrade" price Apple is asking.
So Microsoft makes and incremental follow-up that rights some of the wrongs of the previous version, and it is worth $300, but Apple doing the same thing is just a "service pack" that is not worth the $29 price?


All in all, Windows 7 is a great OS.  It does fix many flaws of its predecessor and I enjoy using it.  I also enjoy my MacBook Pro with its sleek design, well built construction, and OS X.  I can run any OS that I want on it and it is a great machine.  Yes it is a little more than PC notebooks, but it is also of a bit higher quality.  I can't stand fanbois, whether they are Windows fanbois, OS X fanbois, or Linux fanbois.  It's a freaking computer OS, there are much better things on which to devote your time, love, and attention.

Offline 2k6nats

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #8: August 26, 2009, 04:36:13 PM »
I have no idea what any of that means. All I know is I will never go back to PC after rocking the magnificence of a MAC.

Because it's "intuitive" and "works the way you want it to", right?  Spare me :roll:

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #9: August 26, 2009, 04:38:24 PM »
Pffff.  PCs are so much more versatile.  I see the appeal of Macs, but I could never use them as my primary computer, much less my sole computer.
Except that every Mac is in fact a PC and can run Windows, either natively through Bootcamp or in a VM such as Parallels.  A Mac can run OS X and Windows, but a 'PC' can only run Windows.

What do you do on your PC that you don't think you could do on a Mac?  I see this argument a lot and I think a lot of it has to do with an ignorance of what software is available for the platform.  You are perfectly welcome to prefer Windows, but I am just curious to what you think is not doable on the Mac.

Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #10: August 26, 2009, 04:46:56 PM »
Pffff.  PCs are so much more versatile.  I see the appeal of Macs, but I could never use them as my primary computer, much less my sole computer.

You're just mad that I can look at pictures on my MAC and not run a high risk of viruses. ;)


Offline Nathan

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #11: August 26, 2009, 04:50:11 PM »
You're just mad that I can look at pictures on my MAC and not run a high risk of viruses. ;)


Just to be a total geek, I gotta point out that MAC refers to Media Access Control addresses that are assigned to networking cards.  The computer you have is a Mac.

Also, there is no such thing as the Mac Store, it's the Apple Store :P

Oh, and the pictures is great ;)

Offline The Chief

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #12: August 26, 2009, 04:59:19 PM »
Except that every Mac is in fact a PC and can run Windows, either natively through Bootcamp or in a VM such as Parallels.  A Mac can run OS X and Windows, but a 'PC' can only run Windows.

Yep, Macs have been running the same guts as PCs for a few years now, but I don't bother pointing that out because I think it's generally understood when someone says "Mac" that they mean "expensive pretty-looking PC running Mac OS."  As for the "inability" of "PC" to run Mac OS, you can thank Apple for that.  There's nothing preventing OS X from running on any PC except Apple's fear of competing with MS in an environment that they don't tightly control.  If I cared to, I could get a Hackintosh (OS X running on non-sanctioned PC hardware) up and running in a few days.  Probably a lot faster if I were more familiar with the process.  Don't know if you've heard of Psystar or not, but they're a company that recently got sued into oblivion by Apple for doing exactly that and trying to sell it.

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What do you do on your PC that you don't think you could do on a Mac?

Everything that I already know EXACTLY how to do QUICKLY and easily on Windows.  Same reason I don't use Linux as a desktop OS.  Unless there is a compelling need, I am already vastly more experienced with Windows.

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I see this argument a lot and I think a lot of it has to do with an ignorance

You're right.  I'm ignorant of how to do a lot of things that I already know inside and out on a Windows platform, from complex tasks to things as simple as keyboard shortcuts.  Re-learning all of these things for a platform that has less than 10% market share does not behoove me in any way unless possibly I'm aiming for a job as a Mac Genius.


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You are perfectly welcome to prefer Windows, but I am just curious to what you think is not doable on the Mac.

You can't build your own Mac.  I haven't bought a whole PC in 10 years (unless you count my clearance special laptop) The PCs I construct myself are vastly superior to anything Mac has to offer at the same price point, or even double the price point.  I would cite PC gaming, but I honestly don't do that much gaming anymore, and with consoles on the rise while computer gaming (or at least complex computer gaming) declines, this is less of an issue for me than it may have been in the past.  Still worth mentioning for some, however.

What can you do on your Mac that I can't do on my PC, hmm?  Actually nevermind that, you weren't really claiming that to begin with.

Most of what people perceive as the superiority of the Mac is due to their niche status and relative security-through-obscurity.  Oh and because they're slick-looking.

I agree, there are far better things to obsess over than operating systems.  That's why I stick with "PCs"/Windows (or Linux for certain things) and save my money for life's greater pleasures.  In spite of how I might come off here, I don't "hate" Macs or the Mac OS, nor am I completely ignorant of their capabilities or how to use them.  They are simply not my preference.  What does make my blood boil is when people who know don't know what they're talking about rave on about how much better Macs are because of XYZ fallacious reasons.

Offline The Chief

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #13: August 26, 2009, 05:07:15 PM »
You're just mad that I can look at pictures on my MAC and not run a high risk of viruses. ;)

I haven't had a virus....  um...  ever, really.  Security through obscurity is all the Mac platform has.  Almost every time there is a major hacking convention, Macs are the first to fall.  I even recall a recent article where one hacker said that hacking OS X was "fun" whereas hacking Vista was "hard work."

But even ignoring technical arguments, the security of a computer always boils down to the user.  If you can't surf pictures on a PC without catching something, then by all means spend a couple grand on a Mac to "protect" yourself.

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #14: August 26, 2009, 05:08:26 PM »
Chief FTW :clap:  :worship:

Offline The Chief

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #15: August 26, 2009, 05:15:19 PM »
I will give Macs this much - they do a good job of spoon-feeding the average user most of the things an average user needs.  For the rest of us, the "benefits" are far less clear-cut.  I won't lie, I've recommended Macs to people before.  But in all honesty, that speaks more to what I think of their intellect than anything else.  And yes I am an arrogant bastard :lol:

Chief FTW :clap:  :worship:

crap.  Macs must be better than I thought :?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #16: August 26, 2009, 05:18:04 PM »
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What can you do on your Mac that I can't do on my PC, hmm?

Pretty much what you said :)

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Everything that I already know EXACTLY how to do QUICKLY and easily on Windows OS X.

I just prefer the way the Mac "works" over that of Windows, though I believe that with Windows 7, Microsoft is on par with OS X in pretty much every area except for security, which the argument can be made that the Mac is only protected by obscurity, which I don't buy as the full reason but it does help.

I also liked building PCs back in the day, but now that notebooks are out pacing desktop sales, you pretty much have to buy a notebook from a company.  I don't know of too many people that build their own notebooks.

I admit that the looks of a Mac appeal to me and is one of the reasons that I like buying them, but they are also better built than a run of the mill PC notebook.  Solid machined aluminum makes if feel well built and sturdy.  The PC notebooks I have owned and used were plasticky and flimsy feeling.  Sony builds some good notebooks (or at least they used to) but then the price argument for PC over Mac goes out the window since most of the Vaios I have seen are priced right up there with a Mac.

I do dislike Apple's policy of restricting OS X to their hardware, but I understand why they have to do it.  I would never buy a Mac Pro if I could build my own PC for cheaper with just as much power.

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What does make my blood boil is when people who know don't know what they're talking about rave on about how much better Macs are because of XYZ fallacious reasons.
I'm a Mac user, and I agree 100% with this, and it goes both ways.  Windows fanatics do it too.

I do have to say that if in 3-4 years when it comes time to replace my MacBook Pro Windows 8 has continued to improve as they have with 7 and I can find a manufacturer that makes a quality machine on par with Apple that I would not rule out buying a "PC" over another Mac.

Offline PC

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #17: August 26, 2009, 05:19:51 PM »
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Probably a lot faster if I were more familiar with the process.


Watch this.

http://revision3.com/tekzilla/satadock

Offline The Chief

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #18: August 26, 2009, 05:30:15 PM »
Pretty much what you said :)

I just prefer the way the Mac "works" over that of Windows, though I believe that with Windows 7, Microsoft is on par with OS X in pretty much every area except for security, which the argument can be made that the Mac is only protected by obscurity, which I don't buy as the full reason but it does help.

Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that Macs are wide open by any means, but if you check any objective source and peel away the hype, Windows is generally more secure.  Average Windows users, on the other hand...  :lol:

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I also liked building PCs back in the day, but now that notebooks are out pacing desktop sales, you pretty much have to buy a notebook from a company.  I don't know of too many people that build their own notebooks.

Yeah I've heard this almost every year now for years and years.  Notebooks, blah blah.  I wouldn't be caught without mine, but it in no way replaces my desktop, and probably will not for a very long time.  I'd run this forum from my desktop if I could, it's way faster than our host's machine.  Too bad I can't get 100 megabit lines to my place :P

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I admit that the looks of a Mac appeal to me and is one of the reasons that I like buying them, but they are also better built than a run of the mill PC notebook.  Solid machined aluminum makes if feel well built and sturdy.  The PC notebooks I have owned and used were plasticky and flimsy feeling.  Sony builds some good notebooks (or at least they used to) but then the price argument for PC over Mac goes out the window since most of the Vaios I have seen are priced right up there with a Mac.

I like my Compaq notebook.  It's plain, but sturdy.  If I were in the market for a notebook and price were no object, then sure, I'd definitely give a macbook/pro strong consideration (and put Windows 7 on it ;) )  But as you said - more important things to spend my money on.

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I do dislike Apple's policy of restricting OS X to their hardware, but I understand why they have to do it.  I would never buy a Mac Pro if I could build my own PC for cheaper with just as much power.

That's not really the reason.  I mean sure it's a factor, but it isn't the driving factor.  Mac OS is only old with Mac hardware because if it were freely available for all PCs, it would be of no better quality than Windows, and probably a whole lot worse since Apple doesn't have nearly the experience MS has when it comes to supporting every conceivable hardware configuration under the sun.  Then there's the whole security thing...  no, Mac OS and Macs themselves are an expensive, profitable niche, and Apple has no intention of ever changing this.

I would also argue that there notebooks available with just as much or more power than Apple's products.  They just aren't as "stylish."  If there's one thing Apple has the market cornered on, it's style.  Whether they actually have the best looking machines or not, they've certainly got everyone convinced that they do.  And for the people that care about that, why would you ever buy an imitation, no matter how good, if you can just get the original?

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I'm a Mac user, and I agree 100% with this, and it goes both ways.  Windows fanatics do it too.

Of course.  I'm firmly in the Windows camp, but I readily admit that "Mac vs PC" is generally no more productive an argument than "Democrats vs Republicans".

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I do have to say that if in 3-4 years when it comes time to replace my MacBook Pro Windows 8 has continued to improve as they have with 7 and I can find a manufacturer that makes a quality machine on par with Apple that I would not rule out buying a "PC" over another Mac.

Ugh, can't we just all agree to dump ancient ass XP and enjoy Windows 7 for a while before start talking about Windows 8 :lol:

Offline JMW IV

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #19: August 26, 2009, 05:42:54 PM »
blah blah blibbity bloo blah.

PC vs Mac arguments FTL.

I hate that freaking Mac commercial too. so freaking annoying.

I'll use whatever I can play games on the best.  

I'm pretty sure that if I could really game on Linux, Ubuntu would be my primary OS. but nobody in the gaming industry is really interested in supporting Linux or OS X. so windows it is for me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #20: August 26, 2009, 05:47:23 PM »
MS better damn well not still be on Windows 7 in 3-4 years! :lol:  Apple will be on 10.7 or 10.8 Alley Cat or whatever by then :rofl:

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That's not really the reason.  I mean sure it's a factor, but it isn't the driving factor.  Mac OS is only old with Mac hardware because if it were freely available for all PCs, it would be of no better quality than Windows, and probably a whole lot worse since Apple doesn't have nearly the experience MS has when it comes to supporting every conceivable hardware configuration under the sun.  Then there's the whole security thing...  no, Mac OS and Macs themselves are an expensive, profitable niche, and Apple has no intention of ever changing this.

No, I didn't mean that the reason they don't is because I would roll my own, the reason you state is the real reason, I was just stating that I would build my own if I was able to legally do so.

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Of course.  I'm firmly in the Windows camp, but I readily admit that "Mac vs PC" is generally no more productive an argument than "Democrats vs Republicans".
:worship:

Why can't Windows users admit that Macs are good at many tasks and Mac users admit the same about Windows?  Without each other around, innovation would be slowed.  Do you think that MS would continually improve their products as fast as they have from Vista (6) to 7 (6.1)?  Would Apple continue to try to add new features if they didn't have to try to compete and take market share from MS?

All said, I like Windows 7 and I can't wait to get my copy of Snow Leopard (for $9.95 through the up-to-date program).

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #21: August 26, 2009, 05:49:21 PM »
blah blah blibbity bloo blah.

PC vs Mac arguments FTL.

I hate that freaking Mac commercial too. so freaking annoying.


I'll use whatever I can play games on the best. 

I'm pretty sure that if I could really game on Linux, Ubuntu would be my primary OS. but nobody in the gaming industry is really interested in supporting Linux or OS X. so windows it is for me.
Agreed and Agreed.  I really only game on consoles so gaming isn't a real issue to me.

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #22: August 26, 2009, 05:58:02 PM »
Of course.  I'm firmly in the Windows camp, but I readily admit that "Mac vs PC" is generally no more productive an argument than "Democrats vs Republicans".
Why can't Windows users admit that Macs are good at many tasks and Mac users admit the same about Windows?  Without each other around, innovation would be slowed.  Do you think that MS would continually improve their products as fast as they have from Vista (6) to 7 (6.1)?  Would Apple continue to try to add new features if they didn't have to try to compete and take market share from MS?
These.  I am unabashedly a Mac guy.  But I also know that there's really no reason for a PC guy to make the jump unless there's a compelling reason to do so.  I work in a visual medium, so the Mac is really great in that regard.  I don't play games online and I can get my Word and Excel just fine which are the only MS programs I use regularly.  My brother asked me why he should go to a Mac.  When I heard what he wanted to use it for, I told him to stick to the PC.  He does hate his Dell though...

Offline DCFan

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Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #23: August 26, 2009, 06:10:37 PM »
I've always gotten a kick out of the attitude that Macs with their supposedly superior architecture are somehow impervious to viruses. The fact is that hackers don't bother writing viruses for Macs because they have such a puny market share.  They can't get the bang for the buck with debilitating viruses when Macs command around 5% market share while PC's are over 90%.

Re: Hardware/OS Geek Thread
« Reply #24: August 26, 2009, 06:11:45 PM »
I haven't had a virus....  um...  ever, really.  Security through obscurity is all the Mac platform has.  Almost every time there is a major hacking convention, Macs are the first to fall.  I even recall a recent article where one hacker said that hacking OS X was "fun" whereas hacking Vista was "hard work."

But even ignoring technical arguments, the security of a computer always boils down to the user.  If you can't surf pictures on a PC without catching something, then by all means spend a couple grand on a Mac to "protect" yourself.

I've heard the exact opposite about PCs. They are nothing but worm farms and private boxes for hackers to jack off in. I never had a virus on my MAC nor have I ever been hacked. That "couple grand" gives you unparalleled piece of mind so you can concentrate on more important things.

Like pictures. :)

Kidding aside, I was an avid PC user once. After my second PC went to the craps over viruses and couldn't support the amount of graphic work and media work I was doing at the time, I switched to MAC and haven't gone back since.

The debate is silly because it all boils down to personal preference and what you are doing with your computer.

Like looking at pictures. :lol: