WHY NOT THE NATS IN 09?

[Why Not?]

I see it's you again.  Well, I suppose you can take solace in the fact that Matt Wieters appears to be the goods whether he carries a .900+ OPS or a .200+ OPS.

Breaking down the position (not game) means taking into account all the things that is asked of that position.  Since the advent of fantasy baseball has taken over, people fail to take into account that guys actually have to put mitts on and play in the field.  And in the case of catcher, it's more than just getting the ball back to the pitcher, trying to throw out steal attempts, dressing snappily and being cordial. 

Working with pitchers and spending your extra time studying opposing hitters has long been a catcher's PRIMARY job - read anything about any HoF catcher to any highly regarded catcher by scouts and coaches.  While the meathead outfielders and first basemen take 250 homerun swings in batting practice, catchers will actually take time to work with the pitchers on gameplans, opponents weaknesses and strengths, establishing effective relationships, etc.  Things not asked of other positions.  Having played the position myself for quite some time now, I can see why those things are so vital - more so than an extra 15 singles, 5 doubles and three homeruns over the course of a 162 game season are.  Reasons why players, coaches, and scouts have all valued Brad Ausmus over Ivan Rodriguez; Jason Varitek over Jorge Posada.

But hey, what do I know?  I only know what I read and hear from my years of studying the position to better improve my game.  I don't bother researching outfielders because I, quite frankly, don't care much about outfielders.  Catchers and third basemen are what I study because those are the two positions I play the most.  IMO, Flores is ready for the majors and when HE'S OLDER THAN 23 YEARS OLD perhaps people will finally realize he's pretty good.  The kid's got plenty of time to prove his worth here.  When you watch him from a purely catching perspective you can see he's got the tools, he just needs the polishing.  It will come with time and five years from now, he'll be a good catcher worthy of talking about as a major-leaguer.

I appreciate the skills necessary to catch. I know there are things a catcher does that can't be measured with statistics. But the value of those things are overblown; always have been. Even if Flores was an absolute master of every nuance of the position (and few claim this to be the case), he will hurt his team more than help it if he gets on base less than 30% of the time.

Wait, players, coaches and scouts ALL prefer Ausmus over Tek/Pudge/Posada? Seriously? Ausmus has held on because ONE organization thinks his intangibles make up for his weak stick. The vast majority of baseball personnel knows that having an Ausmus as your primary catcher is a losing proposition. MLB is littered with outstanding receivers who don't hit. They are called backup catchers.

[Minty Fresh]

I appreciate the skills necessary to catch. I know there are things a catcher does that can't be measured with statistics. But the value of those things are overblown; always have been. Even if Flores was an absolute master of every nuance of the position (and few claim this to be the case), he will hurt his team more than help it if he gets on base less than 30% of the time.

Wait, players, coaches and scouts ALL prefer Ausmus over Tek/Pudge/Posada? Seriously? Ausmus has held on because ONE organization thinks his intangibles make up for his weak stick. The vast majority of baseball personnel knows that having an Ausmus as your primary catcher is a losing proposition. MLB is littered with outstanding receivers who don't hit. They are called backup catchers.

By your rationale, then, Wil Nieves is more valuable than Ramon Hernandez.

[ronnynat]

Minty, I understand that you played catcher (so did I) and you study the position, but it's a little different when you're talking about Major Leaguers. These guys are supposed to be the best of the best. I know there are some that are better defensively, but what you want at the highest level is the best all-around guy that you can get. I think Flores will end up being a beast, but the fact remains that he HAS TO get better offensively. If he was, say, a 30-year-old, his offensive numbers would cancel out the fact that he's a good catcher. We'd have to find someone better.

[Why Not?]

By your rationale, then, Wil Nieves is more valuable than Ramon Hernandez.

What? That doesn't make any sense at all.

[Why Not?]

Minty, I understand that you played catcher (so did I) and you study the position, but it's a little different when you're talking about Major Leaguers. These guys are supposed to be the best of the best. I know there are some that are better defensively, but what you want at the highest level is the best all-around guy that you can get. I think Flores will end up being a beast, but the fact remains that he HAS TO get better offensively. If he was, say, a 30-year-old, his offensive numbers would cancel out the fact that he's a good catcher. We'd have to find someone better.

That's the thing with Flores. He's young and he might figure it out at the plate, but his lack of discipline is going to make it hard unless his power really blossoms. It's hard to get a read on him too because he skipped right past the high minors. I could see him having some good power years but other seasons where he hits .220. It's really hard to keep a guy like that in the lineup, regardless of defensive skills.

[sportsfan882]

He was hitting .270-.280 all year until a late season slump which he was not able to correct because that weak nag Chase Utley knocked him out for the season.

[PANatsFan]

That's the thing with Flores. He's young and he might figure it out at the plate, but his lack of discipline is going to make it hard unless his power really blossoms. It's hard to get a read on him too because he skipped right past the high minors. I could see him having some good power years but other seasons where he hits .220. It's really hard to keep a guy like that in the lineup, regardless of defensive skills.

See Howard, Ryan for low BA, low OBP, high slugging. See Dunn, Adam for low BA, high OBP, high slugging, and a guy we actually want.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Flores is NOT Brad Ausmus, at least not yet.  Few guys are that good, defensively.

You really need to be somewhere in that area, defensively, if you're going to be part of a Major League line-up with the type of offensive numbers Flores put up.  Right now, I don't think Flores is close enough to that.  Anyone who thinks Flores is a tremendous defensive catcher right now wasn't paying attention this year.

[Why Not?]

See Howard, Ryan for low BA, low OBP, high slugging. See Dunn, Adam for low BA, high OBP, high slugging, and a guy we actually want.

I'm not totally sure what you mean.

Howard has a healthy OBP, though it was down a bit this year.

Yes, low batting average/high strikeouts is OK if you can pound the ball and draw walks. Flores might eventually pound the ball, but it's unlikely he'll ever draw enough walks to get his OBP to be much more than a factor of his BABIP.

[PANatsFan]

I'm not totally sure what you mean.

Howard has a healthy OBP, though it was down a bit this year.

Yes, low batting average/high strikeouts is OK if you can pound the ball and draw walks. Flores might eventually pound the ball, but it's unlikely he'll ever draw enough walks to get his OBP to be much more than a factor of his BABIP.

.339 sucks ass

Last year's .392 would have been great

[Why Not?]

.339 sucks ass

Last year's .392 would have been great

NL league average is .331; AL is .336. Slightly above average doesn't really suck ass.

[Skipper88]

Would you want this guy as your catcher?   He was born in 1982, so he's 26 years old in 2008.  In his first two full seasons, his OBP was below .300.  He has never hit double digits in HR.  He only put up more than 50 RBI once.



 


His stats throwing out runners are darned good.   He leads all Major League catchers in throwing pct. (47%) and pick-offs (18) since 2005.    He is known as a very good defensive catcher who works well with the pitching staff.   In other words, he has "intangibles."






In the last two seasons he has finally begun to hit the ball and get his OBP up to a solid level, but I can tell you there was NEVER any talk of replacing him even when he was hitting .216 with a .274 OBP in 2006.

Who is he?   And would you want him on your team if you could get him?

[Minty Fresh]

Minty, I understand that you played catcher (so did I) and you study the position, but it's a little different when you're talking about Major Leaguers. These guys are supposed to be the best of the best. I know there are some that are better defensively, but what you want at the highest level is the best all-around guy that you can get. I think Flores will end up being a beast, but the fact remains that he HAS TO get better offensively. If he was, say, a 30-year-old, his offensive numbers would cancel out the fact that he's a good catcher. We'd have to find someone better.

ronnynat:

"IMO, Flores is ready for the majors and when HE'S OLDER THAN 23 YEARS OLD perhaps people will finally realize he's pretty good.  The kid's got plenty of time to prove his worth here.  When you watch him from a purely catching perspective you can see he's got the tools, he just needs the polishing.  It will come with time and five years from now, he'll be a good catcher worthy of talking about as a major-leaguer."

That's what I said in an earlier post.  You and I are in agreement, I'm just tired of the Flores bashing and a lack of understanding of the catching position.

[/rant defending Flores]

[Minty Fresh]

What? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Wil Nieves had a better OBP than Ramon Hernandez and is regarded as a great defensive catcher. 

[Minty Fresh]

Flores is NOT Brad Ausmus, at least not yet.  Few guys are that good, defensively.

You really need to be somewhere in that area, defensively, if you're going to be part of a Major League line-up with the type of offensive numbers Flores put up.  Right now, I don't think Flores is close enough to that.  Anyone who thinks Flores is a tremendous defensive catcher right now wasn't paying attention this year.

The thing is, you don't know that, I don't know that and nobody can ever be quite sure until Flores gets some time under his belt.  One thing is for sure, he's not going to learn anything on the bench.  The Nats are doing the right thing by letting him play.

[Minty Fresh]

Would you want this guy as your catcher?   He was born in 1982, so he's 26 years old in 2008.  In his first two full seasons, his OBP was below .300.  He has never hit double digits in HR.  He only put up more than 50 RBI once.

His stats throwing out runners are darned good.   He leads all Major League catchers in throwing pct. (47%) and pick-offs (18) since 2005.    He is known as a very good defensive catcher who works well with the pitching staff.   In other words, he has "intangibles."

In the last two seasons he has finally begun to hit the ball and get his OBP up to a solid level, but I can tell you there was NEVER any talk of replacing him even when he was hitting .216 with a .274 OBP in 2006.

Who is he?   And would you want him on your team if you could get him?

Yadier Molina.  And yes, I like his work.  He's the best of the catching Molinas.

[blue911]

Would you want this guy as your catcher?   He was born in 1982, so he's 26 years old in 2008.  In his first two full seasons, his OBP was below .300.  He has never hit double digits in HR.  He only put up more than 50 RBI once.


(Image removed from quote.)
 


His stats throwing out runners are darned good.   He leads all Major League catchers in throwing pct. (47%) and pick-offs (18) since 2005.    He is known as a very good defensive catcher who works well with the pitching staff.   In other words, he has "intangibles."

(Image removed from quote.)




In the last two seasons he has finally begun to hit the ball and get his OBP up to a solid level, but I can tell you there was NEVER any talk of replacing him even when he was hitting .216 with a .274 OBP in 2006.

Who is he?   And would you want him on your team if you could get him?

Yadier is good but I'd keep Flores.

[Minty Fresh]

Yadier is good but I'd keep Flores.

A great organization (Cardinals) shows patience with its young players.  I only hope we learn that lesson.

[Minty Fresh]

By the way, leave it to AZ to create yet another polarizing thread.

[PANatsFan]

Wil Nieves had a better OBP than Ramon Hernandez and is regarded as a great defensive catcher. 

NL league average is .331; AL is .336. Slightly above average doesn't really suck ass.

Haha, Why Not? can be entertaining sometimes, and he can be WRONG sometimes.

You are right, paying millions for league average OBP and terrible defense is totally worth it for Ryan Howard. And Ramon Hernandez is an MVP quality catcher.

[blue911]

NL league average is .331; AL is .336. Slightly above average doesn't really suck ass.

The NL average for firstbasemen is .359.

[PANatsFan]

The NL average for firstbasemen is .359.

Ooh - Why Not? got powerwashed

[Why Not?]

The NL average for firstbasemen is .359.

I'd trade 20 points of OBP for leading humanity in HRs. Howard had a sub-par season (really a terrible couple of months) in terms of OBP. He'll be back way above average OBP for a couple of more seasons before that massive body breaks down.

[Why Not?]

Wil Nieves had a better OBP than Ramon Hernandez and is regarded as a great defensive catcher. 

Nieves' OBP in 2008 was way above anything he'd ever posted in the majors. Ramon's OBP was a career low. I'm still not seeing your point.

[Why Not?]

Haha, Why Not? can be entertaining sometimes, and he can be WRONG sometimes.

You are right, paying millions for league average OBP and terrible defense is totally worth it for Ryan Howard. And Ramon Hernandez is an MVP quality catcher.

Wait, who said that?

How did a discussion about Jesus Flores turn into the merits of Ryan Howard and Ramon Hernandez?