Author Topic: The Future of Baseball in SE Florida - The Ballpark of the Palm Beaches  (Read 80081 times)

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Offline monkeyhit

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Noting wrong with Viera.  the whole thing is a bloody crime, as someone else has suggested.  These carpetbaggers from DC need to be put in a swamp.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Noting wrong with Viera.  the whole thing is a bloody crime, as someone else has suggested.  These carpetbaggers from DC need to be put in a swamp.

Nothing special about Viera either. It's isolated, the Lerners inherited the deal, and there is an out clause now that the ballpark has been paid off.

Offline PowerBoater69

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A bit more info on what is being planned beyond the ballpark itself.  Wonder if they'll put in a Mortine's?

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According to county documents, the development could also include two upper-priced hotels, an extended-stay hotel, a sports rehabilitation facility and a culinary arts facility, which together could generate $20.4 million in economic impact.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2013/07/delayed-washington-nationals-park-will.html

Offline GburgNatsFan

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It's not a crime, there's money to be made for all parties.

The problem with Viera is that there are no other teams there anymore, meaning playing Spring training games is a hassle, which can only put the team at a disadvantage.

The beauty of Viera is it's on the Space Coast, and I'd like going there a lot more than going to effing Kissimmee, which is central Florida swampland within the Disney sphere of tourist hell.

Noting wrong with Viera.  the whole thing is a bloody crime, as someone else has suggested.  These carpetbaggers from DC need to be put in a swamp.

Offline Galah

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It's not a crime, there's money to be made for all parties.

The problem with Viera is that there are no other teams there anymore, meaning playing Spring training games is a hassle, which can only put the team at a disadvantage.

The beauty of Viera is it's on the Space Coast, and I'd like going there a lot more than going to effing Kissimmee, which is central Florida swampland within the Disney sphere of tourist hell.


Amen

Offline HalfSmokes

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It's not a crime, there's money to be made for all parties.

are there any studies showing that there is any money to be made for the host city?

Offline TigerFan

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are there any accurate studies showing that there is any money to be made for the host city?

FIFY.  I'm sure there will be lots of reports showing profit to be had.  Otherwise they wouldn't venture into building stadiums. 

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Politicians aren't that stupid. If there isn't a way for them to grift their share of the profits, they wouldn't bother. :)

are there any studies showing that there is any money to be made for the host city?

Offline HalfSmokes

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FIFY.  I'm sure there will be lots of reports showing profit to be had.  Otherwise they wouldn't venture into building stadiums. 

I'm not so sure, I think stadiums have a lot of value to politicians (not the same as cities or citizens)- there is an initial boost of construction jobs and the city's profile gets raised (at least a little even for minor league parks), paying for the thing is either a problem for their predecessors or it means they were reelected (either way they win)

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Wow. You have  a more labyrinthine, devious mind than I have. Have you considered running for office? :)

I'm not so sure, I think stadiums have a lot of value to politicians (not the same as cities or citizens)- there is an initial boost of construction jobs and the city's profile gets raised (at least a little even for minor league parks), paying for the thing is either a problem for their predecessors or it means they were reelected (either way they win)

Offline comish4lif

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are there any studies showing that there is any money to be made for the host city?
Thestudies are generally mixed. But I do remember, when Nats Park was being run through all possible permutations, there were a handle of private entities (like Deutschebank) that were willing to finance it up front for the future profits.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Thestudies are generally mixed. But I do remember, when Nats Park was being run through all possible permutations, there were a handle of private entities (like Deutschebank) that were willing to finance it up front for the future profits.

they make money, but when compared to the tax breaks received, or the government backing of debt issues, the town doesn't necessarily come out on top, http://www.american.com/archive/2008/april-04-08/a-closer-look-at-stadium-subsidies is actually an interesting read about why stadiums don't generate the economic activity that they are supposed,

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First, consumer spending on sports may simply substitute for spending on other types of entertainment—and on other goods and services generally—so there is very little new income or employment generated. Sports fans that attend a game may reduce their visits to the movies or to restaurants to free up finances for game tickets and concessions. Patrons of local restaurants and bars who come to watch the games on television also are likely to cut back on their other entertainment spending.

Second, compared to the alternative goods and services that sports fans may purchase, spending related to stadium attendance has a relatively small multiplier effect. This is because spending at the stadium translates into salaries for wealthy athletes, many of whom live outside the city where they play. High-income individuals generally spend a smaller fraction of their income than low- and middle-income people—and much of the spending professional athletes do occurs in a different community than where they earned it. So the money paid to players does not circulate as widely or abundantly as it would were it paid to people with less wealth and more attachment to the city.

 Third, whether the stadium subsidy comes from raising local taxes or from slashing public services—or from both—its effect is to reduce the net spending generated by the stadium project. Plus, imposing new taxes introduces new administrative costs and makes the economy less efficient. Consider the common practice of funding stadium and arena subsidies with new taxes on hotel occupancy and rental cars. One argument for such taxes at the local level is that they are paid by outside visitors, many of whom may be in town to see the sporting events. But the taxes would also be paid by traveling businessmen and conventioneers. When comparing cities to host an upcoming meeting, businesses and professional associations may select between otherwise comparable cities based on which one has the lower hotel and rental car taxes. In other words, the new taxes used to subsidize the stadium construction may ultimately reduce visits to the city by non-sports-related travelers.

The first definitely doesn't apply to a spring training facility during spring training, but it may apply for the rest of the year, the second two still seem pertinent though

another thing to keep in mind is the actually time the facility is used

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There are numerous reasons for the muted economic effects. The biggest is that arenas often sit empty for a significant portion of the year. Jobing.com Arena is guaranteed 41 hockey games annually. The other 324 nights, it must find concerts, conventions or other events to fill the schedule, and in Glendale, where the arena competes with facilities in nearby Phoenix, that can be tough to do.

"We've looked at tons of these things, and the one that we found that seemed to make sense is the Staples Center in Los Angeles," Matheson said. "But they use it 250 dates a year. They don't make sense when you're using it 41 times a year and competing with another venue down the street."
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/if-you-build-it-they-might-not-come-the-risky-economics-of-sports-stadiums/260900/

(executive summary- I'm glad I live in NOVA and get to enjoy venues paid for by DC tax payers- thanks guys)

Offline PowerBoater69

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I believe that Florida kicks in $50 million for a city with two teams but only $10 for a city with one team. So Osceola is looking at paying $90 million based on the Nats proposed plan, certainly a bad deal for the county. Now if they can get the Jays to move in its a great deal, costs are a whole lot less and revenue is a whole lot higher.

Offline PowerBoater69

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I'd love to see the breakdown of attendance numbers for the Nats and Astros based on local fans vs tourists. It is my suspicion that Viera attracts a lot more local fans, which means that the Nats attendance would be expected to drop in Kissimmee. Projected attendance would be the Nats out of state attendance plus the Astros in state attendance.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Great article just published by the Osceola News Gazette, best yet on the numbers involved.

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TDC Chairman Brian Wong told commissioners during the workshop segment that adding the construction costs (capped at $98 million by agreement) and 30 years of operating losses ($100 million) and debt service ($60 million) pushes the cost per hotel room night acquired up near $100 per room after a $29 million payment from the county’s general fund to make the plot of land pad-ready for development.

“This investment is really significant, as big as this county will ever make. There is significant risk,” Wong said, also noting that while the agreement includes the Nationals paying an annual use fee to the county ranging from $500,000 to $580,000 during the 30-year lease, they paid Space Coast Stadium $765,000 annually to use the 18-year-old stadium in Viera.

Experience Kissimmee Planning Manager David Rivenbark put the cost per room night at $10.85, citing the $56 million annual impact from 104,000 room nights generated by the new facility between spring training and amateur sports events held from April through December, when the county would have priority there.


If I'm reading the first and third paragraphs correctly, the hotel guy thinks that the ballpark deal will cost $100 per night per room and the tourism guy says it will only cost $10.  Sounds like they have a lot of numbers to crunch over the next 30 days.

I'm more certain about the numbers in the second paragraph, that the Nats want to cut their rent by a third while moving into a brand new $100 ballpark.

The article also contains more quotes from the Nats VP spouting off about the delay, declaring that the terms are non-negotiable, and bluffing that the Nats have a limited time frame as though we have any other options that approach the deal Osceola is considering. If I were them I'd turn down the deal just to avoid ever having to meet with him again.

www.aroundosceola.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14426:commission-postpones-baseball-complex-decision-for-30-days-&catid=27&Itemid=138

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Wonder if they'd be able to negotiate something as good as what they have now in Viera if this fails. :smh:

Great article just published by the Osceola News Gazette, best yet on the numbers involved.
 

If I'm reading the first and third paragraphs correctly, the hotel guy thinks that the ballpark deal will cost $100 per night per room and the tourism guy says it will only cost $10.  Sounds like they have a lot of numbers to crunch over the next 30 days.

I'm more certain about the numbers in the second paragraph, that the Nats want to cut their rent by a third while moving into a brand new $100 ballpark.

The article also contains more quotes from the Nats VP spouting off about the delay, declaring that the terms are non-negotiable, and bluffing that the Nats have a limited time frame as though we have any other options that approach the deal Osceola is considering. If I were them I'd turn down the deal just to avoid ever having to meet with him again.

www.aroundosceola.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14426:commission-postpones-baseball-complex-decision-for-30-days-&catid=27&Itemid=138

Offline Galah

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Wonder if they'd be able to negotiate something as good as what they have now in Viera if this fails. :smh:


Really...I mean they're talking about a THIRTY YEAR lease for Kissimmee??? They couldn't even make it through 15 years in Viera before they started looking elsewhere

Offline PowerBoater69

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Really...I mean they're talking about a THIRTY YEAR lease for Kissimmee??? They couldn't even make it through 15 years in Viera before they started looking elsewhere

It will be 21 years, the original contract was written to allow them to leave at this point, and shouldn't you be complaining on the Marlins board?

Offline PowerBoater69

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The Osceola News Gazette had a second article that I missed earlier, more great stuff:

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“[The tourism Development Council] did not know the second, third and fourth cents of TDT collections were going to be collateral for the bonds when they voted,” he said. “This deal was made under the cloak of a confidentiality agreement, and now there is great pressure by the Washington Nationals to get it voted on.”
Shady dealings by the Nats ownership, who would of thunk it.

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“If this is the price of doing business, this might not be a business we should be in,” [TDC Chairman Brian Wong] said. “There’s some risks here that are not accounted for. I will tell you that this is a fantastic deal for the Nationals. They have zero risk and zero headaches with this proposal. We are looking at this project in isolation and not in the context of a broader strategy to make sure everything fits together and makes sense strategically and financially.”
Wong is right.

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“What troubles me is that just 53,602 people attended 16 Houston Astros games this year. The Nationals are supposed to bring more people than that but nothing I’ve seen suggest that more than 85,000 people in total will come,” [Nigel Worrall, vice president of the Central Florida Vacation Rental Manager’s Association] said.
That's the $100 million question.  85K for 16 games is not a big number, but he's got a great point, are the Nats that much more popular than the Astros to bring in a 60% or more increase in attendance?


http://www.aroundosceola.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14425:tourism-officials-wary-of-ballpark-spending&catid=27&Itemid=138

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Well, I'd be okay if they were forced to stay in Vierra, work on their fundamentals, and do some sports psychology exercises on longer bus rides.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Quote
Meanwhile, they APPROVED the county manager negotiating a contract with the Texased based architectual company. But he has a limit of “only” $6.5 million to pee away on a design plan of a new stadium which may not be approved! Make sense to you?

Makes no sense to me.


ksib.net/index.php/carl-cricket/2013/07/orec-saturday-party-postponed-bocc#c29858


Offline machpost

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I'm not too worried about the deal not getting done. There were a few moments seven or eight years ago when everybody was certain that the deal to build Nationals Park was completely dead, and that the team was going to move someplace else.

Offline PowerBoater69

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I'm not too worried about the deal not getting done. There were a few moments seven or eight years ago when everybody was certain that the deal to build Nationals Park was completely dead, and that the team was going to move someplace else.

I'm not sure how the outcome of one negotiation affects the other, but I the case of Nats Park, the mayor and Council bought into MLB's bluff and signed on to a crappy deal.

In both cases, as a Nats fan, I benefit from the deal, but as a general principle I do hate to see tax payer money wasted.

Offline mimontero88

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I'm not sure how the outcome of one negotiation affects the other, but I the case of Nats Park, the mayor and Council bought into MLB's bluff and signed on to a crappy deal.

In both cases, as a Nats fan, I benefit from the deal, but as a general principle I do hate to see tax payer money wasted.
So then you must support almost nothing.

Offline PowerBoater69

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So then you must support almost nothing.

I don't understand how your statement relates to the text that you bolded.