Author Topic: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch  (Read 73992 times)

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Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1225: August 16, 2011, 01:55:49 PM »
If thats his stance, it's a poor one to take.

So developing and scouting is only praised when you find someone nobody knew of?

Thats impossible. With the number of showcases and tournaments and media coverage, there aren't many people who are unknown. The one or two that may fall through the cracks are not the only people a system should be praised for selecting or developing. We just had a kid from freaking Wyoming selected in the first round. Everyone knew about him. Next year, a kid from the hotbed of Spanish Fork, UT will be af irst rounder(Kayden Porter).

Seeing the talent is one thing. Being able to bring it in to your ogranization is another. Developing it into a big leaguer is yet another part of the scouting department. There are many things that go into the area of scouting and development - not just finding some kid from a random small town or developing a late round pick.

then what's your definition of scouting? Was Strassburg a great scouting find? Harper? If we sign Prince or Pujols next year, should we praise the scouts for finding them?

Offline Evolution33

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1226: August 16, 2011, 01:56:44 PM »
Usually its the way in which the express that positivity. Most fans are rather obnoxious about it. I can't tell you how many stupid people I've heard claiming the Redskins are going to be great this year. Defense is top 5. Beck is the next Mark Mark Rypien. Hightower is a faster John Riggins. They gonna put together a bunch of no names and make the next Hogs.

Let's just be honest. The Nats are an okay ball club right now and their fan base reflects that. They have a ton of potential right now, but very little of it is proven. Time will tell.

I think every running back in the NFL right now is faster than John Riggins and it means little to nothing. Heck I would be there are some O-linemen faster than John Riggins. It is a faster game than it was 20 years ago (crap that makes me feel old). I was only 10 but I don't remember speed being the most important factor in John Riggins running. I remember when Jimmy Rollins got killed for saying the Phillies are the team to beat in the NL East a few years ago. Athletes, GMs, and coaches/managers should believe their team can and will win. If people don't believe in themselves then no one else will either.

Offline Rasta

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1227: August 16, 2011, 01:57:19 PM »
If thats his stance, it's a poor one to take.

So developing and scouting is only praised when you find someone nobody knew of?

Thats impossible. With the number of showcases and tournaments and media coverage, there aren't many people who are unknown. The one or two that may fall through the cracks are not the only people a system should be praised for selecting or developing. We just had a kid from freaking Wyoming selected in the first round. Everyone knew about him. Next year, a kid from the hotbed of Spanish Fork, UT will be af irst rounder(Kayden Porter).

Seeing the talent is one thing. Being able to bring it in to your ogranization is another. Developing it into a big leaguer is yet another part of the scouting department. There are many things that go into the area of scouting and development - not just finding some kid from a random small town or developing a late round pick.

Agreed 100%.  And it's not like Rizzo and his guys haven't found those guys as I mentioned earlier. 

Offline GMUTrkstar

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1228: August 16, 2011, 01:57:31 PM »
and you saw those same guys in the media before we picked them. If he wants credit for scouting- find someone no one has heard of or someone over looked.

J. Zimmermann and D. Norris are two examples off the top of my head.

Offline tomterp

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1229: August 16, 2011, 01:58:20 PM »
Im not sure what argument you are trying to make here.


Oh, I get his argument, it's not too far off base. 

Rizzo bragged about scouting and development, but half the fanboys on this board would have picked those guys (scouting), and they have yet to be developed even a smidgeon by Nats staff, so how the hell can Rizzo or anyone claim credit for a player development yet to occur?  If they become stars, living up to their potential, then yes we can give full credit to a great developmental effort.

I guess he was trying to say something nice about his staff, rather than boast what a great GM he was for signing the guys he'd already drafted.

Offline Rasta

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1230: August 16, 2011, 02:00:10 PM »
then what's your definition of scouting? Was Strassburg a great scouting find? Harper? If we sign Prince or Pujols next year, should we praise the scouts for finding them?

Norris, Peacock, Milone, Meyers, Lombo, Espi, Kimball.  All guys that weren't the top 50 BA type of guys you mentioned. 

Morse - That's the pro scouting side.  Took a guy no one else wanted and look at him now.  Capps - Turned him into Wilson Ramos.

Again, Rizzo ain't perfect but I don't see how you can argue they haven't pulled their fair share of guys who weren't well known. 

Offline blue911

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1231: August 16, 2011, 02:00:14 PM »
If memory serves me, Pujols went unnoticed because he spent his summers in the DR. No travel team, no buscone. Just the area scout

Offline Evolution33

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1232: August 16, 2011, 02:01:32 PM »
If memory serves me, Pujols went unnoticed because he spent his summers in the DR. No travel team, no buscone. Just the area scout

Also wasn't he believed to be too fat for third and not a good enough bat for first or a corner outfield spot?

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1233: August 16, 2011, 02:01:55 PM »
Norris, Peacock, Milone, Meyers, Lombo, Espi, Kimball.  All guys that weren't the top 50 BA type of guys you mentioned. 

Morse - That's the pro scouting side.  Took a guy no one else wanted and look at him now.  Capps - Turned him into Wilson Ramos.

Again, Rizzo ain't perfect but I don't see how you can argue they haven't pulled their fair share of guys who weren't well known. 

and I'd credit him for all of those but taking the number 1 ranked player going into a draft (Rendon) isn't good scouting

Offline GMUTrkstar

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1234: August 16, 2011, 02:02:58 PM »
I think when Rizzo refers to player development he's talking about how our prospects have been developing since he took over and put his staff into place. Also he was in charge when AZ had one of the best player development systems in the game so he's likely putting those same pieces into place over here.

Offline d_mc_nabb

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1235: August 16, 2011, 02:03:03 PM »
Okay, just to start: there is NO guarantee any one of these players becomes an every day starter- Rizzo is not to be blamed if they all bust.

That said, Rizzo dd a great job here. He got two potential top 20 prospects in Rendon (whom I saw ranked #9 somewhere) and Purke, as well as a five tool hitter and a starter with a ton of potential. There is nothing not to like. No, it doesn't mean a thing for player development. But everyone here should know by now: Rizzo is not a good interview, and talk in interviews is cheap anyway. Rizzo just stole the draft- a lot of really, really good players.

They are not diamonds in the rough, however. Everyone knew they were good players. But Rizzo had the nerve to risk drafting them- and in the end, he succeeded in signing them.

There is a reason other teams passed on Rendon and Purke- there are concerns there, and not unfounded, especially in Purke's case. But ultimately, the signings were worth the risk. Say what you will about Rizzo, the Nats did an amazing job here- they have either the #1 or #2 draft (potentially behind only the Pirates; depends whom you ask).

Rizzo picked up a ton of talent, enough to push the Nats farm into a top flight one- he deserves a lot of credit, if not for finding a diamond in the rough (which will be determined only in a few years anyway), but for having the nerve to do what nobody else did and get some high risk, high reward guys.

Offline Rasta

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1236: August 16, 2011, 02:03:17 PM »
and I'd credit him for all of those but taking the number 1 ranked player going into a draft (Rendon) isn't good scouting

I don't get your anger at Rizzo then.  Are you just pissed about that comment or is there a larger argument you are trying to make?  Not trying to be a jerk.  I seriously am just trying to understand your anger at him. 

Offline RD

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1237: August 16, 2011, 02:03:33 PM »
picking off of a ba top list isn't so much scouting as having a large budget- I'm sure the padres would love to have the flexibility to give a third rounder 4.15 million.

As far as development- you're correct, we have guys come up through the system and play- I fail to see how that differentiates us from the rest of baseball. 

LoL I guess this is just the typical negative stance people take around here. Nothing will please some people.

Certainly, every team drafts players and gets them to the bigs. But guess what - Very few come from the bottom to the top in 2 or 3 years. Just a couple years ago, our system was totally bare and ranked among the worst in the game. It is now one of the best, along with some of thosep layers drafted in that short span already in the big leagues helping the big club. While every club has some, not every team adds a Strasburg, Harper, Zimmermann, Espinosa, and Storen in such short order.

btw, the Padres have spent a lot of money on the draft, and it hasn't worked out very well for them. They took Donavan Tate just a couple years ago and paid him MAJOR money. That hasnt worked out well. They just spent $3mill on a second round pick. So its not like they have spent on people and are operating on pennies.

Also, it doesn't take much to see the talent in players ranked on a Baseball America list. But it does take work and ability to get those kids signed and developed. Are we suppose to ignore the fact that we added Robbie Ray and AJ Cole last year, because they were highly ranked prospects? They fell because people thought they were going to school. But the Nationals are the ones that gambled and went after them in the draft and selected them. They felt they could get them signed and did. But because they were highly ranked kids, we dont get credit for putting in the work to get them signed? That just makes no sense whatsoever. Taking the gamble on a kid with talent is one thing. But it definitely takes work in scouting to get a feel on if you do have a chance to sign the kid. Pulling the trigger on the selection is only a part of it. Getting them to sign is another. Developing them is another.

There are teams that operate with less budgets on the draft than the Nationals. That doesn't mean its a given that the Nationals will produce talent. There are big money guys and big name guys that flop all the time.

Fact is, the Nationals have been aggressive accumulating talent. They've gotten lucky and had rare talent guys at their picks(Strasburg and Harper). But, you still have to develop kids. And in just a couple years, we've taken a lot of guys that are ready to impact the bigs, and in just the last year or two, we've taken guys that have made big splashes in the minors right away. Our system is developing players as well. The entire scouting department, from scouting the kids, signing the guys, and developing the guys deserves praise for turning this system around. They don't deserve to have their success written off as every team should be that way.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1238: August 16, 2011, 02:07:52 PM »
I don't get your anger at Rizzo then.  Are you just pissed about that comment or is there a larger argument you are trying to make?  Not trying to be a jerk.  I seriously am just trying to understand your anger at him. 

mostly that comment and the love he gets here. People treat him like he's led us to multiple world series wins when he's really just taken a terrible team and turned it into a bad team.

Offline Glockypoo

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1239: August 16, 2011, 02:08:04 PM »
LoL I guess this is just the typical negative stance people take around here. Nothing will please some people.

That's really the bottom line. 

Offline Glockypoo

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1240: August 16, 2011, 02:11:46 PM »
People treat him like he's led us to multiple world series wins...

Examples? 

Offline tomterp

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1241: August 16, 2011, 02:13:20 PM »
LoL I guess this is just the typical negative stance people take around here. Nothing will please some people.

Also, it doesn't take much to see the talent in players ranked on a Baseball America list. But it does take work and ability to get those kids signed and developed.

Hah, I'm THRILLED with the signings.  No negative stance here.  But that doesn't mean we can't have a chuckle at Rizzo's silly comments in which he claimed credit for what hasn't happened (player development, and to a lesser extent scouting) and didn't claim credit for the obvious win last night - the signing of these terrific prospects.

Like WPA said, he had probably slept little in a few days and was giddy with the success of the evening, and just got a little carried away.

Offline RD

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1242: August 16, 2011, 02:18:09 PM »
Hah, I'm THRILLED with the signings.  No negative stance here.  But that doesn't mean we can't have a chuckle at Rizzo's silly comments in which he claimed credit for what hasn't happened (player development, and to a lesser extent scouting) and didn't claim credit for the obvious win last night - the signing of these terrific prospects.

Like WPA said, he had probably slept little in a few days and was giddy with the success of the evening, and just got a little carried away.

The thing is, people criticizing that comment aren't seeing the big picture.

By saying solidifies, it means the Nationals were already the talk of the industry before this.

And thats with guys like Strasburg and Harper, but also because of Espinosa, Zimmermann and Storen at the big league level. And the rise of Brad Peacok and Stephen Lombardozzi, the early successes of AJ Cole and Robbie Ray, the emergence of Destin Hood, etc.

There is more to this than just this draft. We have been on the rise in terms of the farm system for two years now. Adding in the fact that we signed all four guys(in which EVERYONE thought we'd only get 3), does solidify the Nationals as the talk of the industry.

And once more - scouting goes beyond just seeing the talent. Getting a feel for the kid and what his price tag may be and what the risks are is another part of scouting. We took gambles other teams were not willing to. And while the kids need to get out and play, getting them signed at this moment is still a positive for this organization.

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1243: August 16, 2011, 02:18:29 PM »
this is actually one of the most interesting debates we've had on here recently.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1244: August 16, 2011, 02:20:34 PM »
Examples? 

The thing is, people criticizing that comment aren't seeing the big picture.

By saying solidifies, it means the Nationals were already the talk of the industry before this.

And thats with guys like Strasburg and Harper, but also because of Espinosa, Zimmermann and Storen at the big league level. And the rise of Brad Peacok and Stephen Lombardozzi, the early successes of AJ Cole and Robbie Ray, the emergence of Destin Hood, etc.

There is more to this than just this draft. We have been on the rise in terms of the farm system for two years now. Adding in the fact that we signed all four guys(in which EVERYONE thought we'd only get 3), does solidify the Nationals as the talk of the industry.

And once more - scouting goes beyond just seeing the talent. Getting a feel for the kid and what his price tag may be and what the risks are is another part of scouting. We took gambles other teams were not willing to. And while the kids need to get out and play, getting them signed at this moment is still a positive for this organization.

Offline RD

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1245: August 16, 2011, 02:23:09 PM »
Wow, this isn't getting interesting. its just plain pathetic now.

So now you're trying to argue that Im acting like Rizzo has won us numerous World Series' by talking about what where our minor league system has gone in the past 2 or 3 years?

You're comprehension skills are terrible.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1246: August 16, 2011, 02:25:07 PM »
this is actually one of the most interesting debates we've had on here recently.

I agree. So many smart people on this forum. It is also so nice to be able to debate now without all the "FIRE Rizzo!" nonsense.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1247: August 16, 2011, 02:26:47 PM »
Wow, this isn't getting interesting. its just plain pathetic now.

So now you're trying to argue that Im acting like Rizzo has won us numerous World Series' by talking about what where our minor league system has gone in the past 2 or 3 years?

You're comprehension skills are terrible.

Yeah halfsmokes. Colorful metaphors aside. I think you missed the boat on that post.

Offline Glockypoo

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1248: August 16, 2011, 02:27:15 PM »
Quote from: Glockypoo on Today at 02:11:46 PM
Examples? 



Quote from: RD on Today at 02:18:09 PM
The thing is, people criticizing that comment aren't seeing the big picture.

By saying solidifies, it means the Nationals were already the talk of the industry before this.

And thats with guys like Strasburg and Harper, but also because of Espinosa, Zimmermann and Storen at the big league level. And the rise of Brad Peacok and Stephen Lombardozzi, the early successes of AJ Cole and Robbie Ray, the emergence of Destin Hood, etc.

There is more to this than just this draft. We have been on the rise in terms of the farm system for two years now. Adding in the fact that we signed all four guys(in which EVERYONE thought we'd only get 3), does solidify the Nationals as the talk of the industry.

And once more - scouting goes beyond just seeing the talent. Getting a feel for the kid and what his price tag may be and what the risks are is another part of scouting. We took gambles other teams were not willing to. And while the kids need to get out and play, getting them signed at this moment is still a positive for this organization.


I see no mention of World Series titles - just a mention about our farm system improving. Which it has.

It's been my experience on message boards that people make outlandish generalizations based off one experience/encounter. In this case you may not even reach that threshold.

Offline Rasta

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Re: 2011 Post Draft Discussion / Signing Watch
« Reply #1249: August 16, 2011, 02:27:46 PM »
mostly that comment and the love he gets here. People treat him like he's led us to multiple world series wins when he's really just taken a terrible team and turned it into a bad team.

I'm strictly an outsider since I've barely been here a few weeks but I personally don't see any worship of Rizzo on this board. 

My perspective on Rizzo?  He's proven to be a solid GM with potential so far.  Made some good moves (Morse, Capps for Ramos) and some bad ones (Maya & others). 

But taking a long term perspective I think in a short period of time he has taken the farm system from bottom 3 to a top 15 at bare minimum.  That is not an easy thing.  And he's done it by finding some guys below the top 50 with the guys I mentioned.  He's taken a team from last place to at least respectable with a potentially bright future. 

He's not perfect but he certainly hasn't been bad.

Just my thoughts.