amazing belliard highlight reel (pre-nationals)

[Air Zimmerman]

just thought i'd share this newfound belliard highlight reel i came across (the play at 1:50 is unreal) :


*bonus footage as a nat*

fading away throw to first vs the braves


behind the back flip vs the reds
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4071434159642951680&q=Ronnie+Belliard&total=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

belly is the king of the fadeaway and the behind the back pass! 

(worship) the  (pimp)

[CALSGR8]

Yeah, when that last "flip" play was nominated for "play of the year" I tried to get people to vote for him.  I think that play is much better than any OUTFIELDER Scooping  one from over the fence because you're watching the ball almost the entire time and are approximating where its going to land. 

No way in that scoop could he predict that the ball was going to make it to the shortstop at all.  From your videos, it seems he often makes hard throws from what seems unbelievable positions and still gets the ball to 1st base.  Now granted 2nd basemen are supposed to make those kind of plays.  However, I think Belliard's build may make it a little harder because he's not one of your thinner 2nd basemen.  He's got more body to throw across.

I'm with you on this one.  I like Belliard too 

[Nat of the Living Dead]

The flip play is pretty to look at but it was a complete fluke.  You couldn't convince me otherwise.  But I agree it is cool to watch.

[CALSGR8]

Fluke, maybe, but fluke or not I think it was the play of 2007!   

[Dave B]

The flip play is pretty to look at but it was a complete fluke.  You couldn't convince me otherwise.  But I agree it is cool to watch.

you can say that about any good play

how is that a fluke? because the ball had to be hit in that exact spot at that exact point in time for that play to happen? ryan zimmerman's walk off against Wang was a fluke too, because Wang happened to throw him meat ball.

if nothing else, those clips show belliard has great hands and he is probably as well equipped as anybody to pull off the spinorama

[Nat of the Living Dead]

you can say that about any good play

how is that a fluke? because the ball had to be hit in that exact spot at that exact point in time for that play to happen? ryan zimmerman's walk off against Wang was a fluke too, because Wang happened to throw him meat ball.

if nothing else, those clips show belliard has great hands and he is probably as well equipped as anybody to pull off the spinorama

This play would be on a completely seperate reel, "The Bonehead Reel", if he would of flopped that out into the outfield rather than luckily into the guy covering 2B.  He couldn't make this play again and he shouldn't even be trying to.  He got to the ball which was great, I don't deny that.  But its what happens after which makes it just plain dumb luck.

[Dave B]

This play would be on a completely seperate reel, "The Bonehead Reel", if he would of flopped that out into the outfield rather than luckily into the guy covering 2B.  He couldn't make this play again and he shouldn't even be trying to.  He got to the ball which was great, I don't deny that.  But its what happens after which makes it just plain dumb luck.

He makes two or three plays in the highlight video exhibiting the skills required to make this play. Not the same play, but the ability to throw the ball out of his glove and make other no look plays.

I think that if that play were to be able to be duplicated, he could probably make it 7 or 8 times out of 10

I know AZ makes it easy to disagree with him on some points but the spinorama is a great play. 

And there is no way that ball is thrown hard enough to end up in left field. Worst case, felipe misses it and takes 4 steps to pick it up, with no runners advancing

[CALSGR8]

He makes two or three plays in the highlight video exhibiting the skills required to make this play. Not the same play, but the ability to throw the ball out of his glove and make other no look plays.

I think that if that play were to be able to be duplicated, he could probably make it 7 or 8 times out of 10

I know AZ makes it easy to disagree with him on some points but the spinorama is a great play. 

And there is no way that ball is thrown hard enough to end up in left field. Worst case, felipe misses it and takes 4 steps to pick it up, with no runners advancing

I agree!

[Nat of the Living Dead]

He makes two or three plays in the highlight video exhibiting the skills required to make this play. Not the same play, but the ability to throw the ball out of his glove and make other no look plays.

I think that if that play were to be able to be duplicated, he could probably make it 7 or 8 times out of 10

I know AZ makes it easy to disagree with him on some points but the spinorama is a great play. 

And there is no way that ball is thrown hard enough to end up in left field. Worst case, felipe misses it and takes 4 steps to pick it up, with no runners advancing

Gotta say that is BS.  He could only make that play three times out of 10 in those same circumstances.  I'm not necessarily saying it was tossed hard enough that Ryan Church would have to come up from his position but a missed ball is a missed ball.

Again, it is pretty to look at.  I admit that.  But as a feasible everyday play he shouldn't be doing it because like I said he wouldn't hit it again.  He got the ball, it somehow ended up in the right glove for an out, we are happy. 

[Dave B]

But as a feasible everyday play he shouldn't be doing it because like I said he wouldn't hit it again. 

thats ridiculous. where is the harm? why shouldnt he do it?

maybe, maybe a guy gets to third on that play. probably just is safe as second because felipe could adjust in time to keep the ball near. for the 30% chance you give it with basically no severe consequences, it is worth a try.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

thats ridiculous. where is the harm? why shouldnt he do it?

maybe, maybe a guy gets to third on that play. probably just is safe as second because felipe could adjust in time to keep the ball near. for the 30% chance you give it with basically no severe consequences, it is worth a try.

You'd want him pulling that stunt in a close game?  If it was a close game and he blew that toss, thats two guys on the corners rather than, worse scenario, a guy on second and a guy on first.  You don't pull that sort of crap in close games. You are better off playing it safe than making circus style catches and throws.  Again, he came up with it but I guarantee you would be screaming bloody murder at him if that throw went anywhere but the catcher's glove.

That is not a basic play and should never be a basic play. Its a fluke play you can put no reliance on.  What are we? The Harlem Globetrotters? Come on.  I can see the coach now, "Now I want you to snag this ball and then throw it behind you.  Don't waste time looking where your throwing it, just throw it."  Yeah, we will have a lot of wins with that.

[Dave B]

You'd want him pulling that stunt in a close game?  If it was a close game and he blew that toss, thats two guys on the corners rather than, worse scenario, a guy on second and a guy on first.  You don't pull that sort of crap in close games. You are better off playing it safe than making circus style catches and throws.  Again, he came up with it but I guarantee you would be screaming bloody murder at him if that throw went anywhere but the catcher's glove.

That is not a basic play and should never be a basic play. Its a fluke play you can put no reliance on.  What are we? The Harlem Globetrotters? Come on.  I can see the coach now, "Now I want you to snag this ball and then throw it behind you.  Don't waste time looking where your throwing it, just throw it."  Yeah, we will have a lot of wins with that.

i revise my analysis and say there is absolutely no way that a guy ends up on third if somehow felipe doesnt catch it. the ball had no speed on it.  nothing to lose, something to gain.  stop digging yourself deeper into this hole

[spidernat]

TO said get your popcorn ready.

[CALSGR8]

Can we add the little popcorn guy to our smileys?

[Nat of the Living Dead]

i revise my analysis and say there is absolutely no way that a guy ends up on third if somehow felipe doesnt catch it. the ball had no speed on it.  nothing to lose, something to gain.  stop digging yourself deeper into this hole

What hole am I digging myself into here?  The hole that says "The Backhand Throw Where the Thrower Doesn't Even Look Where He is Throwing Shouldn't Be an Everyday Play?"  If that is the whole I am digging myself into, give me a shovel.

You can revise your analysis as much as you want.  It still does not hide the fact that it is a completed play by mere luck and it isn't ever going to taught on a day by day basis in the minors.  Regardless of where the ball goes, at the feet of the catcher or into the outfield, trying a play like that on a consistent basis is only going to lead to more errors and more men on base.  Its a cowboy play that looks great on television and when it works but it has no place in the everyday game.

[Dave B]

What hole am I digging myself into here?  The hole that says "The Backhand Throw Where the Thrower Doesn't Even Look Where He is Throwing Shouldn't Be an Everyday Play?"  If that is the whole I am digging myself into, give me a shovel.

You can revise your analysis as much as you want.  It still does not hide the fact that it is a completed play by mere luck and it isn't ever going to taught on a day by day basis in the minors.  Regardless of where the ball goes, at the feet of the catcher or into the outfield, trying a play like that on a consistent basis is only going to lead to more errors and more men on base.  Its a cowboy play that looks great on television and when it works but it has no place in the everyday game.

You CAN'T teach that play, it takes a certain amount of inate coordination and creativity which MLB players like Belliard have.

And you know what, if that ball falls at felipe's feet IT'S NOT EVEN AN ERROR.  Its first and second just like if Belliard didnt try to do anything.

So Derek Jeter should never have made that play in Oakland in the playoffs a couple of years ago because he could have thrown the ball over Posada's head and then everybody else could have kept running around the bases?

I hope you never coach my kids little league team

[Nat of the Living Dead]

You CAN'T teach that play, it takes a certain amount of inate coordination and creativity which MLB players like Belliard have.

And you know what, if that ball falls at felipe's feet IT'S NOT EVEN AN ERROR.  Its first and second just like if Belliard didnt try to do anything.

So Derek Jeter should never have made that play in Oakland in the playoffs a couple of years ago because he could have thrown the ball over Posada's head and the everybody else could have kept running around the bases?

I hope you never coach my kids little league team

I am hoping your not coaching your kids little league team.  If you were I am sure we would see an act equal to a circus. Balls would be flying everywhere and Grandma in the stands would probably be socked in the mouth with a ball.

Come on, man. Basics and fundamentals!  This team has been accused of it for the past three seasons.  Our basics have sucked and you want to start relying on trick plays?  I cannot believe I have seen the day a Nat fan wants players to not even look where they are throwing!  Incredible!

Its first and second in that play.  But if Belliard suddenly took your advice and kept trying and trying, he isn't going to hit that play consistently and when he doesn't the results might not be as kind.  That is what I meant by more errors and base runners.  There are times to be aggressive and there are times to play it wise.

Belliard is a mediocre 2B, good bench player at best.  Don't even start throwing names like Derek Jeter around in the conversation. 

[Dave B]

Its not like he could have thrown it over hand with his bare hand. He made the only play he could.

Jeter and Belliard are major league players. That puts them in about the 99.9999th percentile of people with athletic abilities. Jeter is better because he might run faster and hit better, but in the odd skill of throwing a ball with your glove, beliiard could be better.

Is Belliard the only guy who can make that play? No. He was just the only one in the perfect circumstances to try it.

It was a great play, made by a pretty deft player.

Have you played ever played a sport? Plays like this are one of the great things about playing and watching and you essentially want to eliminate it.  Its not just hot dogging. It was a great play that could help a team win and I dont want my players hesitant to try it or having to filter the thought process of whether or not is OK to try in a particular situation. So much of what athletes do, particularly the great ones, is just reactionary instinct and improvisation

[Nat of the Living Dead]

Its not like he could have thrown it over hand with his bare hand. He made the only play he could.

Jeter and Belliard are major league players. That puts them in about the 99.9999th percentile of people with athletic abilities. Jeter is better because he might run faster and hit better, but in the odd skill of throwing a ball with your glove, beliiard could be better.

Is Belliard the only guy who can make that play? No. He was just the only one in the perfect circumstances to try it.

It was a great play, made by a pretty deft player.

Have you played ever played a sport? Plays like this are one of the great things about playing and watching and you essentially want to eliminate it.  Its not just hot dogging. It was a great play that could help a team win and I dont want my players hesitant to try it or having to filter the thought process of whether or not is OK to try in a particular situation. So much of what athletes do, particularly the great ones, is just reactionary instinct and improvisation

I get what you are saying.  But in a 162 game season, more games are won on just basics than highlight gratification.  Its as simple as that.  Not every game is like some Hollywood drama with jawdropping plays.  While exciting, they don't happen all the time and a team shouldn't be relying on some miracle waiting for them to happen.  More often than not, you hit the basics, you do them well, you win the game.  That is what we are here for. Winning games. Trying to be the DC Globetrotters and force miracles...that isn't going to win you many games.

Sorry, I still can't even begin to sit here and compare Belliard and Jeter.  Its laughable.  Might as well start comparing Cal Ripken Jr. to Robert Fick.

Is Belliard the only one with the luck to complete that play? No. But again, you don't rely on it.  Look where you are throwing the ball.  This team needs to cut down on its mistakes and its errors.  That fact is undisputable.

Instinct and improvisation are important, I agree but again, look where that has put someone like Brett Farve lately.

Good talk.

[Dave B]

Nobody is relying on this. You take advantage of the situations when they arise.  Sometimes you need a little bit more than the basic fundamental plays. They can be good at the fundamentals and make one of these plays every now and then. These are not mutually exclusive.  Nobody is trying to be the globetrotters.

BTW, Belliard is 2nd in the NL among 2bmen in fielding percentage and 5th in zone rating. So he is pretty reliable and gets to a good amount of balls. He's no slouch. I'll trust his instict and let him do his thing. The idea that he is a cowboy is a reach

[Nat of the Living Dead]

Nobody is relying on this. You take advantage of the situations when they arise.  Sometimes you need a little bit more than the basic fundamental plays. They can be good at the fundamentals and make one of these plays every now and then. These are not mutually exclusive.  Nobody is trying to be the globetrotters.

BTW, Belliard is 2nd in the NL among 2bmen in fielding percentage and 5th in zone rating. So he is pretty reliable and gets to a good amount of balls. He's no slouch. I'll trust his instict and let him do his thing. The idea that he is a cowboy is a reach

Never said he himself was a cowboy.  I said it was a cowboy play.

There is a reason this guy was ignored by every other team in the league and there is a reason we continue to look for upgrades in the middle infield.  He is temporary filler, not a solution.  He will suffice until we find something better.

[ronnynat]

He was a top 10 player on a bad team last season.

We definitely need help there. Lopez COULD do much more than Belliard, IMO.

[Dave B]

the guy is a good defender. maybe not the greatest, but defensively he is good.  he is not beyond being upgraded overall, although ladson is indicating he is the secondbaseman while Lopez/Guz battle out SS.

he is a good defensive secondbaseman who made a very nice play which required a lot of skill. it is hard to realize how good of a defender he is because he looks like a beer leaguer, but the zone rating indicates he gets to more balls than a lot of trimmer guys and his fielding percentage says he turns them into outs.

the reason why he was ignored could have also been due to his bogus legal problems at the time

[spidernat]

the reason why he was ignored could have also been due to his bogus legal problems at the time

Was he pimping girls on the strip?   

[Nat of the Living Dead]

Was he pimping girls on the strip?   

I believe it was an extortion case of some kind.