2006 Zimmerman vs 2009 Zimmerman

[The Chief]

So no one else cares that our all-star 3B is hitting .240 for most of the season?  Just as long as he hits .450 for 15 games each in May and August?

I guess SF has forgotten all about his favorite stat - RISP - Zimm is .238 in that department this year.  .170 with 2 outs and RISP.

[DPMOmaha]

why does every discussion SF gets into turn into him arguing that everyone should get down on their knees and worship Ryan Zimmerman because he's the greatest player in the history of Organized Team Sports?

Because we all have this mentality...

[DPMOmaha]

So no one else cares that our all-star 3B is hitting .240 for most of the season?  Just as long as he hits .450 for 15 games each in May and August?

Or 30 in April?

[The Chief]

Or 30 in April?

Huh?  He was .289 in April, and that was mostly during the hitting streak (which encompassed his two-week tear in early May)

Even if you include his August tear, he's only hitting .262 since the streak ended.  That's fine, but it's not an improvement over any of his previous seasons.

I don't think anyone is paying attention to the fact that I said:

I'm honestly not so sure Zimmerman has "improved"

[DPMOmaha]

He started his hit streak in April and it went into May. 

[JMW IV]

as good a Career Season as Zimmerman is having, I don't think it can be debated that Zimmerman made the AS team basically off the back of the hype of his 30-game hit streak.

If not for that, there's no way he makes the team ahead of Dunn, who has had a better season in nearly everything except Web Gems.

[blue911]

sportsfan, I would absolutely rather have the guy who hit 30 doubles and 11 homers with men on base than the guy who hit 12 doubles and 14 homers with men on.

Suck it.

A runner on second takes away the Dunn shift.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Now, Chief...

I'm going to have to agree with sportsfan here.  Sure, he had some cold streaks, but he more than made up for them with his hot streaks.  That's why baseball stats are calculated in averages.

Exactly.  Either Chief is just trying to rile up sportsfan, or he's being amazingly dense.  You don't just dismiss stats because they occurred during a hot streak.  If Zimmerman's #'s are such a product of his hitting streak, then why is his second-half line (.290/.371/.576) even better than his first half line (.288/.354/.473)?

But if you want evidence that Zimmerman has improved, aside from maybe watching the games and taking in the obscenely obvious, try looking at Zimmerman's career-best walk rate and K/BB ratio.  The guy's just seeing the ball better.  It's been quite evident if you simply look at the type of pitches he swings at vs. what pitches he takes, as opposed to what he used to chase.

[The Chief]

Exactly.  Either Chief is just trying to rile up sportsfan, or he's being amazingly dense.  You don't just dismiss stats because they occurred during a hot streak.

No but apparently YOU dismiss them if they occur during the other 75% of the season

If Zimmerman's #'s are such a product of his hitting streak, then why is his second-half line (.290/.371/.576) even better than his first half line (.288/.354/.473)?

Obviously you didn't read all of my posts.

Like I said, outside of two weeks in May and August, Zimm is hitting .240 this year.

But I'll humor you anyway.  His stats since the hitting streak ended?  .262/.346/.475/.821

Nearly identical to his 2006 numbers, but with a 25-point lower BA.

And I guess no one is going to address the fact that he's on track for about the same number of total bases in spite of having 9 more dingers.

But if you want evidence that Zimmerman has improved, aside from maybe watching the games and taking in the obscenely obvious, try looking at Zimmerman's career-best walk rate and K/BB ratio.  The guy's just seeing the ball better.  It's been quite evident if you simply look at the type of pitches he swings at vs. what pitches he takes, as opposed to what he used to chase.

He's only 11 Ks away from (and just about on pace for) his 162-game average

He's already passed his 162-gm average GIDP

He's got a few more walks and a bit better pitch selection, but so what?  I never said parts of his game hadn't improved.  They have.  But overall, his overall offensive value has not improved over his previous best season (2006).

[sportsfan882]

Chief is so wrong it's not even funny

I don't know where he comes up with this stuff.

hot streaks are a part of the game just as slumps are. overall numbers trump all

[The Chief]

Chief is so wrong it's not even funny

I don't know where he comes up with this stuff.

hot streaks are a part of the game just as slumps are. overall numbers trump all

I don't "come up" with it.  These are simple facts.  Zimmerman had a pair of scorching hot two-week streaks.  Otherwise he is hitting .240 on the season.  Overall numbers don't trump crap.  And they certainly don't win individual games.  But I guess if all you care about is swinging from Zimmerman's nuts, then overall numbers are great.

Would you care to actually provide any counter-points, or are you just going to spout nonsense and abuse emoticons like usual?

[sportsfan882]

His numbers speak for themselves. He's walking more, hitting for more power, and hitting for an equal average to his past seasons.

Hot streaks are a part of the game. Just as slumps are. All of the numbers count.

Is he supposed to hit exactly .289 every month? Players aren't allowed slumps over a 162 game season?

[UMDNats]

His numbers speak for themselves. He's walking more, hitting for more power, and hitting for an equal average to his past seasons.

Hot streaks are a part of the game. Just as slumps are. All of the numbers count.

Is he supposed to hit exactly .289 every month? Players aren't allowed slumps over a 162 game season?

I think what Chief was saying is that Zimmerman has been more consistently poor at the plate than good all year long.

[sportsfan882]

I think what Chief was saying is that Zimmerman has been more consistently poor at the plate than good all year long.

he has had some slumps just like any other player but has more than compensated with some insane hot streaks where he carried the team offensively.

this game is all about peaks and valleys.

[The Chief]

he has had some slumps just like any other player but has more than compensated with some insane hot streaks where he carried the team offensively.

Dude, what part of "4 weeks" don't you get?  He's been insanely hot for very short periods and average (for him) or worse for very looong stretches.  That doesn't help the team win more games, it just helps pad his stats.

this game is all about peaks and valleys.

You can quit repeating yourself.  Everyone here already knows that.  You're the one not getting it.

[sportsfan882]

Chief, players don't hit for the exact same average every month. Lots of ups and downs over 162 games.

You want him to stop having hot streaks and try to spread out his production over the whole season?

[sportsfan882]

You can split his numbers apart all you want but at the end of the day, 30+ HRs ~100 RBIs, ~.290 BA is a great season.

[The Chief]

Chief, players don't hit for the exact same average every month. Lots of ups and downs over 162 games.

Why do you keep telling me things I already know?

You want him to stop having hot streaks and try to spread out his production over the whole season?

I want him not to worry about hitting homers so much and get MORE hits when it MATTERS.

You can split his numbers apart all you want but at the end of the day, 30+ HRs ~100 RBIs, ~.290 BA is a great season.

Not as good as 20/110 ~.290.

Not an improvement.

Get it through your head.

[JMW IV]

this game is all about peaks and valleys.

unless we start talking about Dunn. then your so-called standards change.

[DPMOmaha]

I'm starting to be scared because I agree with this:

Hot streaks are a part of the game. Just as slumps are. All of the numbers count.

and this:

I want him not to worry about hitting homers so much and get MORE hits when it MATTERS.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

No but apparently YOU dismiss them if they occur during the other 75% of the season

Obviously you didn't read all of my posts.

Like I said, outside of two weeks in May and August, Zimm is hitting .240 this year.

But I'll humor you anyway.  His stats since the hitting streak ended?  .262/.346/.475/.821

But the hitting streak COUNTS, and it occurred over a very long span of time.  You cannot simply dismiss those numbers.  That is such a ridiculous, cherry-picking argument that I don't even know how you can possibly take yourself seriously.

"Well, if you take out OVER A MONTH of his hitting, he's the same as he was in 2006, so he hasn't improved!"

Lunacy.

He's only 11 Ks away from (and just about on pace for) his 162-game average

He's already passed his 162-gm average GIDP

He's got a few more walks and a bit better pitch selection, but so what?  I never said parts of his game hadn't improved.  They have.  But overall, his overall offensive value has not improved over his previous best season (2006).

I love how you say "only 11 K's."  11 K's is very statistically significant if you're evaluating K/BB, especially when BB have gone up.

Your last statement is demonstrably false.  His OVERALL value has improved, which is exactly why you've been reduced to these oddball, cherry-picking arguments.

It's not even that the gist of what you're saying isn't true - that Zimmerman has been abnormally streaky this year and would've been more valuable had his numbers been more homogenized ala 2006.

The problem is that you're acting as if he has zero value during these so-called "cold streaks" and boiling his value down to a low batting average, which is a very poor stat.

During July, for instance, when Z had his lowest batting average, he still posted a respectable .765 OPS, and more importantly, had 23 RBI's.

[2k6nats]

Chief, aren't you THE whistle-blower when it comes to cherry-picking stats?

Well, if you take away all the times during the year that Zimmerman was really good, he was only average

EDIT: Knorr hit the nail on the head.

[blue911]

Chief, aren't you THE whistle-blower when it comes to cherry-picking stats?

Well, if you take away all the times during the year that Zimmerman was really good, he was only average

EDIT: Knorr hit the nail on the head.

Aren't all statistics cherry-picked?

[houston-nat]

Aren't all statistics cherry-picked?

Only 98% of them

[The Chief]

But the hitting streak COUNTS, and it occurred over a very long span of time.  You cannot simply dismiss those numbers.  That is such a ridiculous, cherry-picking argument that I don't even know how you can possibly take yourself seriously.

"Well, if you take out OVER A MONTH of his hitting, he's the same as he was in 2006, so he hasn't improved!"

Pay attention:

Even with the streak, his numbers aren't better than 2006.  He traded a few homers for twice as many doubles.  That's it.

Lunacy.I love how you say "only 11 K's."  11 K's is very statistically significant if you're evaluating K/BB, especially when BB have gone up.

If you were paying any attention you would see where I ALREADY POINTED OUT THAT HE'S ON PACE FOR 162-GM AVG STRIKEOUTS.

Your last statement is demonstrably false.  His OVERALL value has improved, which is exactly why you've been reduced to these oddball, cherry-picking arguments.

I guess that's why he has 14 fewer RBIs.  And don't tell me RBIs aren't a good stat, you were the one that just trotted them out for your July sample, so it's fair game now.

It's not even that the gist of what you're saying isn't true - that Zimmerman has been abnormally streaky this year and would've been more valuable had his numbers been more homogenized ala 2006.

Nothing else you say even matters.  You just conceded my one and only point RIGHT THERE.  Thanks for playing.

2009 Super-streaky swinging-for-the-fences Zimmerman is not an improvement over more consistent 2006 gap-hitter-with-some-pop Zimmerman.