Microsoft thread

[PC]

Win+F brings up an explorer window.  Pretty sure I haven't used that since XP.  Searching directly from the Start Menu is much more elegant than that, and much less obnoxious/intrusive than Metro.

Personal opinion, of course.

I never used the start menu for searching and was always puzzled when I saw others doing it.

Also this, travel back in time:

http://www.edbott.com/weblog/2012/03/why-do-the-windows-developers-feel-this-new-way-is-an-advantage/

[The Chief]

I never used the start menu for searching and was always puzzled when I saw others doing it.

It's functionally superior to the metro version.  What exactly do you use search for?

[PC]

It's functionally superior to the metro version.  What exactly do you use search for?

I was going to ask you the same thing.  Do you search for files or programs?  I almost never search for programs (except in Windows 8 when configuring my desktop).  I mostly search for files and I use Windows Explorer for that.  There's a search box in the right upper corner that I WEAR OUT and the box is still there and still works.

[Nathan]

I almost never search for files, I use it (on the Mac anyway) almost purely as a keyboard based app launcher.

[The Chief]

I never used the start menu for searching and was always puzzled when I saw others doing it.

Also this, travel back in time:

http://www.edbott.com/weblog/2012/03/why-do-the-windows-developers-feel-this-new-way-is-an-advantage/

If this is supposed to be a valid counter-argument to complaints about Metro, you should know that it isn't.

[PC]

If this is supposed to be a valid counter-argument to complaints about Metro, you should know that it isn't.

No.  It's a "people complain about things" point.  It's no more valid/invalid to complain about the Start Screen in Windows 8 than it was to complain about the Start Menu in Windows 95.  Is it?

[Nathan]

No.  It's a "people complain about things" point.  It's no more valid/invalid to complain about the Start Screen in Windows 8 than it was to complain about the Start Menu in Windows 95.  Is it?

On Windows 95 you could go back to the program manager

[The Chief]

I was going to ask you the same thing.  Do you search for files or programs?  I almost never search for programs (except in Windows 8 when configuring my desktop).

Programs, no, though that ability is certainly helpful for less technically-inclined people, esp for control panel things like changing the screen saver.

I mostly search for files and I use Windows Explorer for that.  There's a search box in the right upper corner that I WEAR OUT and the box is still there and still works.

Searching from the start menu is almost always faster for general searches.  Opening an explorer window and browsing to any particular folder is going to cost you several extra clicks and/or keystrokes vs a start search.  Even doing a general search from My Computer is an extra click or keycombo unless you happen to already have an explorer window open, and in both cases you're left with a window full of search results that doesn't really need to be there and is potentially even eating up extra resources in the background to update its results.  Granted we're talking about minor differences here, but I'm just trying to point out that your method at best ties a start search for efficiency in the general case, and is usually far less efficient.

[The Chief]

No.  It's a "people complain about things" point.  It's no more valid/invalid to complain about the Start Screen in Windows 8 than it was to complain about the Start Menu in Windows 95.  Is it?

Do you know what a logical fallacy is?

[The Chief]

On Windows 95 you could go back to the program manager

"It is still possible to use the Program Manager in Windows XP Service Pack 2 or 3 (and Windows Vista or 7) by copying and replacing the Progman.exe executable with the executable from Service Pack 1 or the Windows XP original retail release."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_Manager

[Nathan]

Programs, no, though that ability is certainly helpful for less technically-inclined people, esp for control panel things like changing the screen saver.

[PC]

You still use the command line in Windows 8 if you want.  I don't know if Program Manager is still there.

And what is the fallacy?  Is one complaint (Start Menu/Windows 95 - Start Screen/Windows 8 ) more valid or superior somehow than the other?  I'm not sure I'm getting your point. 

My point is the complaints are equivalent and I don't think that's a fallacy.

[MarquisDeSade]

Again, when do the dumbass users use this grand changing technology - 2024?  The seventh of never? 

[PC]

Again, when do the dumbass users use this grand changing technology - 2024?  The seventh of never? 

I will admit that.  This is not an upgrade that most users can just "do".  It does require some training. Going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 also required training.  I think we're forgetting how HUGE the change was from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95.

...more logical fallacies, I guess...

[The Chief]

You still use the command line in Windows 8 if you want.  I don't know if Program Manager is still there.

He was kidding about progman dude

And what is the fallacy?  Is one complaint (Start Menu/Windows 95 - Start Screen/Windows 8 ) more valid or superior somehow than the other?  I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

Your mistake is in implying that there's any connection between the two.  That the validity of either complaint has any bearing on the validity of the other. 

My point is the complaints are equivalent and I don't think that's a fallacy.

That's EXACTLY the fallacy

[MarquisDeSade]

I'm just thinking of the legions of users I know that are still baffled by tabs in Excel.

[The Chief]

I will admit that.  This is not an upgrade that most users can just "do".  It does require some training. Going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 also required training.  I think we're forgetting how HUGE the change was from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95.

...more logical fallacies, I guess...

Like I said:

Do you know what a logical fallacy is?

[PC]

Um...ok.  I don't think that's what I (and Ed Bott and many others who've mentioned this) am doing.

Breaking the story all the way down, starts with the massive change from one version of Windows (3.1/7) directly to another (Windows 95/8) followed by very strenuous complaining.  That's the "connection" as you call it.  It's not a technical connection or features connection or anything like that.

The link I posted from Ed Bott was posted by him in direct response to the complaints about Windows 8.  Again, he's not the only one who's done this.  Other Windows technorati have mentioned/posted things like this about the change from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 in their discussions of Windows 8.  I think I did exactly what they did or, at least, that's what my intention was.  Did I do something different than they did?  You're the first person I've read/heard mention "logical fallacy" in doing it.

[The Chief]

Okay.  Just so I'm clear, why don't you tell me exactly what it is you think that response accomplishes.

[PC]

Okay.  Just so I'm clear, why don't you tell me exactly what it is you think that response accomplishes.

I don't know.  It's just being done.

Also, I looked at that Ed Bott post and there were several people there who think like you.  He's one:

Leo Davidson says:
March 13, 2012 at 5:13 pm

I don’t see what relevance this has or how it adds to the debate.

You could find people in the past who argued for and against various issues from the past, some of which turned out to be good ideas and some which didn’t. So what?

If the best defence of the changes is that “some people were wrong about other changes in the past,” and with it the implication that “any change is good, no matter what, and anyone who doesn’t like it just hates change,” then I’ll pass on that logic, thanks.

Leo

Are you Leo Davidson???

[MarquisDeSade]

Nobody gives a rat's ass.

[The Chief]

[Nathan]

What exactly does the metro start screen do?  How does it improve anything when used on a pc?  Seems to me like changes for the sake of making changes.

[PC]

What exactly does the metro start screen do?  How does it improve anything when used on a pc?  Seems to me like changes for the sake of making changes.

Microsoft will never admit it but Windows 8 is clearly a tablet OS first and a desktop OS second and I have no problem with that.  Most surprisingly is, I HATE the tablet form factor, absolutely despise it, all tablets, not just the iPad.  I am a desktop person through and through but I like Windows 8.  Don't ask me why.

The start screen does nothing to "improve" use of the desktop.  I don't believe it was intended to.  Again, it's a tablet OS.

[Nathan]

Which is why people are complaining.