Author Topic: Nats and the 2012 Non-Waiver Trade deadline watch  (Read 88115 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline tomterp

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 33783
  • Hell yes!
WNFF wanted Desi gone all offseason...


That's because he had never shown us for any extended period what he's showing us in 2012.  Not an unreasonable position but it would seem now the scouts and other observers that believed he had all the skills and just needed to bring it together, may have been right. 

Offline JMW IV

  • Posts: 11345
  • Name on the Front > Name on The Back
Glad to see you can differentiate between groups and indivduals and WNFF has its own genius to set us back on course.

Some people wanted a compentent major league player at each position. While some of the players will eventually work out, Rizzo himself admitted he was not attempting to put forth an Ok team. If you actually watch the games, this gets tiresome. Desmond got called up too early, he got written off by some, not the whole board, because of it but don't kid yourself by pretending anyone was wishing for him to fail or that you are some kind of superscout for having 20-20 hindsight.

Who do you think you are? Lorberdecker Dinkledork?

QFT.


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 39371
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
The power jump is the big surprise for Desmond. He's always had the body, and has shown hints of it, but the past 2 years made a lot of skeptics out of people.  The OBP has remained right on career average (poor).  He was miscast as a leadoff or #2 hitter.  The move back in the order made him much more useful.  His offense is based on contact and what he gets from it, not on getting on and letting others knock him in.  I would have said he is more of a #3 hitter than RZ until RZ's latest revival.

The other thing he's showing this year is a big improvement in his defense.  He was subpar his first to years, hands of stone and a scattershot arm that undercut his range.  This year, with LaR at first, the throws are caught.  He still boots too many balls, but instead of being subpar, he's middle of the pack on D.

Offline MarquisDeSade

  • Posts: 15101
  • Captain Sadness
People wanted Desi gone because his numbers were garbage. Its no surprise that people have changed their tune once he proved them wrong. I dont see what kind of package could pry him away right now.

Desmond is one of my favorite players but I was one of the assclowns calling for him to be traded.  Whether or not he falls off a cliff, offensively, this season is yet to be seen but so far he's been a stud. 

Offline Terpfan76

  • Posts: 3924
  • ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Desmond is one of my favorite players but I was one of the assclowns calling for him to be traded.  Whether or not he falls off a cliff, offensively, this season is yet to be seen but so far he's been a stud. 

Amen! I'm a Desi fan too but I also grew incredibly frustrated with him last season. I've always thought he had 15-25hr potential but didn't know that we'd ever see it. Looks like he's figuring things out. Best part is, while I have no proof to offer, it just seems like the whole team enjoys each other. Great chemistry on the Nats this year. Love it! Desi is looking like a heckuva leader too.

Offline Tyler Durden

  • Posts: 7970
  • Leprechaun
Do Tyler Moore and Corey Brown make Mike Morse tradeable? 

Offline ZimW1N

  • Posts: 1741
  • ResignSoto2025
Do Tyler Moore and Corey Brown make Mike Morse tradeable? 

Yes, but I doubt you'll see it happen until December. As banged up as we have been we cannot afford to lose Morse's bat in the lineup once he gets rolling.

Offline Lintyfresh85

  • Posts: 35130
  • World Champions!!!
Do Tyler Moore and Corey Brown make Mike Morse tradeable? 

Lets see how things go when Moore's BABIP drops below .400 before giving him Morse's spot.

Offline welch

  • Posts: 16289
  • The Sweetest Right Handed Swing in 1950s Baseball
- Desmond is becoming the player that Rizzo envisioned. "He ain't going anywhere"
- Morse will stay until he proves he can't hit.
- T Moore certainly stays and plays someplace.
- I'd like to see Corey Brown, if only because he might hit as well as DeRosa and play OF better than Moore and Morse
- Lombo stays
- The pitchers stay, because they have gotten this team into first place. They are the engine that drives the Nats, just like the Hogs were the engine in the Joe Gibbs SB offense.

So...I've just convinced myself that the Nats will not make at trade at the deadline.

Offline Tyler Durden

  • Posts: 7970
  • Leprechaun
Trading the starting shortstop on a contending team with no obvious replacement (and I'm not sure Espinosa would qualify) is hard to imagine. 

Lombo could probably be traded.  Morse, LaRoche, and Moore seem to be very similar players.  All are first baseman though only LaRoche is left handed.

Offline Kentucky_National

  • Posts: 4612
  • BANG ZOOM
    • My Twitter
Just heard on MLB Network that Rizzo called Colorado's O'Dowd to inquire on CarGo, but was told he is untouchable.

Offline welch

  • Posts: 16289
  • The Sweetest Right Handed Swing in 1950s Baseball
Just heard on MLB Network that Rizzo called Colorado's O'Dowd to inquire on CarGo, but was told he is untouchable.

Judging from the Rockies broadcasts, fans go to Rockies games only to see CarGo. He is "the franchise".

Offline Kentucky_National

  • Posts: 4612
  • BANG ZOOM
    • My Twitter
Judging from the Rockies broadcasts, fans go to Rockies games only to see CarGo. He is "the franchise".

I agree. I had to watch "Root Sports" for all the games this series and it was clear that CarGo is their man.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 39371
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
I'm not sure what we should be targetting if we were to deal.  MLBTR picked up a Heyman report saying that we still may be hunting White Whale, but I don't see the White Whale as critical to this team this year.  I think we are kind of locked in with Morse-Harper-Werth / Moore and LaRoche.  As much as we bash the offense, I think we go with what we have the rest of the way. 

I don't see Morse or LaRoche being valuable to a rebuilding noncontender who would trade us, say, a Span or Revere.  If you are thinking Parra, they have Goldschmidt, Kubel, and Upton in the corners.  As for a blocked / redundant CF on a contender (I count any >.500 team as a contender right now), you would have to find one that could use a 1b /dh /lf that does not have a log jam.  Maybe TB would move Upton for the ROS in the right package (play the Big Birther in LF, with Jennings and Joyce, DH Morse, and keep Pena implanted at 1st).  Luke must find enough of the force to to get healthy again for that to work.  Thinking about it, a move for Upton might be the most doable CF move we could make, but it would not be a long term fix, and therefore not the White Whale.

Isn't the more likely move something like a bullpen upgrade (try to improve over Gonzalez and Mattheus?) or a back end of the rotation arm?

Online HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 21604
Isn't the more likely move something like a bullpen upgrade (try to improve over Gonzalez and Mattheus?) or a back end of the rotation arm?


They know more about storen's condition than we do, but slotting him in makes it seem good enough unless we can either take on a salary dump or not pay too much for a middle reliever- maybe something along the lines of the Mike Adams deal last year. Back of the rotation doesn't scare me- I don't see the point of paying what it will take to get a Dempster, and I think lannan is good enough to slot in at the end of the rotation.

Offline Baseball is Life

  • Posts: 20393
  • Proud member of the Sunshine Squad.
I don't see a need for more bullpen help with Storen coming back.

I don't see a need for OF help when Werth comes back and now that we have Moore, Morse, Harper. That's four outfielders, plus all the backups (Ankiel, Bernie, Nady, etc)

I do see a possible need for SP depth when Stras is shut down and now that Wang is struggling. If you think Lannan or somebody from the minors can pick up the Stras starts, then we wouldn't even need that.

Chances are they stand pat or make minor moves.

Online Slateman

  • Posts: 63095
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
They won't be trading for another pitcher if they shut Strasburg down. Not unless they have a rash of injuries. If they shut Strasburg down early, the front office is saying their content with not making the playoffs. If they're not content with giving up, they won't shut him down. Simple as that.

Offline mimontero88

  • Posts: 6240
  • The GOAT
Already as things stand now, the Nats have a logjam of players and cannot possibly play them all every day.  When Jayson Werth gets back it will get even worse.  By my calculations, all of the following players have made a great case that they should be playing every day or (as is the case with Espinosa) seem to get played every day.

IF
Adam LaRoche
Danny Espinosa
Stephen Lombardozzi
Ian Desmond
Ryan Zimmerman

OF
Jayson Werth
Bryce Harper
Michael Morse
Tyler Moore (could also play 1B)

C
Jesus Flores
Jhonatan Solano

That's 11 players to fill 8 positions.  Considering that Wilson Ramos will return next season I think the catchers factor in as well when considering the logjam issue.  The question of this thread is should the Nationals trade some of this talent to try to refill the minor league system that has been depleted with the loss of Derek Norris, A.J. Cole, Brad Peacock, Tommy Milone, Bryce Harper, Tyler Moore, and presumably at some point Corey Brown.  And if they shouldn't trade to refill the minor league system should they make a deadline deal?  If so, who do you trade and what do you want in return?

Offline houston-nat

  • Posts: 19050
- Michael Morse could also play 1B
- I don't think Solano's proven he can play as a starter. Small sample size and all that
- Lombardozzi seems to be working in the utility role; otherwise he and Espinosa can platoon
- Hitting is our need, not our strength

Offline Obed_Marsh

  • Posts: 7593
I think it is pretty tough to discuss in the abstract. So much of it comes down to what the other team will be willing to give up that by the time your start making assumptions it is pretty much mental mastrabation.

I admit that 1B and C will be interesting. I'd be surprised if there weren't some trades there eventually.

Offline mimontero88

  • Posts: 6240
  • The GOAT
- Michael Morse could also play 1B
- I don't think Solano's proven he can play as a starter. Small sample size and all that
- Lombardozzi seems to be working in the utility role; otherwise he and Espinosa can platoon
- Hitting is our need, not our strength

I agree with all of that.  I put Morse in the OF since he has gotten all of his playing time there so far.  Morse, Lombardozzi, and Moore could all have been put as either IF or OF.  However, I'm not convinced hitting is as big of a need as we think it is.  Morse will get going and Tyler Moore should get more regular playing time.  I expect Zimmerman to consistently improve especially with a 4 day break coming up for the All-Star break as he continues to get healthier.  Ideally I would like to trade Tyler Moore as we need LaRoche's left-handed bat in the middle of the order and have a lineup that looks something like this.

Lombo/Espy
Harper
Zimmerman
LaRoche
Morse
Werth
Desmond
Flores/Solano

I think that lineup projects to hit very well in the long run.  However, I wouldn't be opposed to trying to acquire another bat and we have the trade bait at the major league level to do it.  I'm actually genuinely puzzled as to who I would move and what I would want in return which is why I think the trade deadline could be very interesting.

Offline mimontero88

  • Posts: 6240
  • The GOAT
Mim - would you object if I merged this with the non-Nats trade deadline thread?  It's a nice first post, BTW.

I would call it the Nats trade deadline thread.  It certainly isn't non-Nats.  But if we already have a Nats trade deadline thread it should be merged.  I looked for it before posting but I may have missed it

Offline NJ Ave

  • Posts: 3485
If you're a team that is contending for a playoff spot - and I assume this team wants to be in that position every year for the conceivable future - you do not trade away major league talent to restock a farm system.

And they're not filling 8 positions, they're helping to fill the 13-14 spots generally reserved for position players on the 25-man roster. Out of the players you listed, LaRoche, Zimmerman, Werth, Morse, and Flores have missed time with significant injuries. Why would you eliminate the depth and possibly sacrifice a playoff run to fill your minor league system with some C+ prospects?

Offline mimontero88

  • Posts: 6240
  • The GOAT
If you're a team that is contending for a playoff spot - and I assume this team wants to be in that position every year for the conceivable future - you do not trade away major league talent to restock a farm system.

And they're not filling 8 positions, they're helping to fill the 13-14 spots generally reserved for position players on the 25-man roster. Out of the players you listed, LaRoche, Zimmerman, Werth, Morse, and Flores have missed time with significant injuries. Why would you eliminate the depth and possibly sacrifice a playoff run to fill your minor league system with some C+ prospects?

I generally agree with that.  Here is the issue though.  When Jayson Werth gets back, we will have Werth, Harper, Morse, Moore, and LaRoche to fill 4 positions (the OF and 1B).  Each of those guys should be every day players.  However we have a gaping hole in the lineup at 2B unless you want to platoon.  Regardless, you have talent that will be sitting on the bench unused.  Why not use that to either help solidify the future or try to go get a legitimate bat to play 2B.  LaRoche's contract is up after this year and Morse's contract is up after next year.  Doesn't it make sense to get something for these guys while we can if they can't all make major contributions to a pennant race?

EDIT:  This all becomes moot if Moore stops hitting but I believe he will keep it up.

Offline Mr Clean

  • Posts: 4109
Sometime soon the Nats could actually have 5 rookies in the lineup: Harper, Lombo, Moore, Brown and Solano.