Sweepless in Seattle - A Seafood Thread

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Not true - it's much easier to control the environment of fish tanks than slop pens

with due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. 

Sea lice from salmon farms are one of the most significant threats facing wild salmon in British Columbia. Stocked year round with hundreds of thousands of fish in small areas (net-cages) fish farms are ideal, and unnatural breeding grounds for lice. Infestations on farms significantly increase the number of lice in surrounding waters, far beyond what would occur naturally.

In the spring, when fish eggs hatch and juvenile salmon emerge from the rivers and make their way to the ocean many are exposed to sea lice during their journey because fish farms are typically located in sheltered waters along wild salmon migration routes. Juvenile pink and chum salmon are smaller than an AAA battery when they migrate by salmon farms and some may not have fully developed scales yet. When lice attach themselves to juveniles, their bodies may not be able to cope, and they may die.

Peer-reviewed research has shown that one to three sea lice are enough to kill a juvenile pink salmon newly arrived in saltwater.1

http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/salmon-farming-problems/environmental-impacts/sea-lice/

Water flowing out of an aquaculture facility can carry excessive nutrients, particulates,rusted drain pipe bacteria, other diseased organisms and polluting chemicals. These may harm surrounding habitats, cause algal blooms, poison ocean wildlife and other severe disturbances. Feed and fecal matter from aquaculture facilities can deplete the dissolved oxygen concentrations within and around the site. Since different fish have varying tolerances to dissolved oxygen levels, the wastewater being discharged from an aquaculture operation may have large impacts outside the facility long before a problem is detected within. Anti-fouling agents used to keep cages/pens clean are highly toxic. For example, the common anti-fouling agent butyltin (specifically tributyltin) has been linked to reproductive problems in gastropod mollusks (i.e. whelks and abalone) and is suspected to cause immune suppression in marine mammals including dolphins, seals and sea otters

http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/common-resources/fish/fish-farming/offshore/problems/

Virtually all factory farmed salmon are descended from 40 original stocks of Norwegian Atlantic salmon.12 Successive breeding has selected for large, fast maturing, adaptable, somewhat aggressive salmon. These genetically similar fish often out-compete with native wild salmon for food, habitat, and mates. In contrast, wild salmon have developed into many genetically distinct types, specially adapted to particular geographic regions within the marine environment.

Successive infusions of newly escaped farmed salmon, however, have enabled a genetically inferior but physically dominant fish to interbreed and compromise the long-term survival not only of wild salmon, but also of other genetically related fish including brown trout.13 A 10-year Irish study showed conclusively that repeated escapes from salmon farms could lead to extinctions in wild Atlantic salmon populations.14

http://www.puresalmon.org/escapes.html

Escaped farm salmon is the core of the endangered species listing for the Atlantic Salmon.  As I noted, when Angus King was governor, he maintained that all the salmon found in  the Maine rivers (the last US Atlantic Salmon runs) were interbred with farmed salmon or were in fact farm salmon, therefore listing was not appropriate.  Fish and wild life biologists disagreed, as well as friends of mine.  As much as I love salmon, unless I know the farm and how it was farmed, I will not eat it from a farm.

[varoadking]

with due respect...

I used that term here 2 years ago and someone laughed at me...

Being civil never goes out of style...

...and neither does capitalization when starting a sentence...   

[whytev]

with due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. 
http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/salmon-farming-problems/environmental-impacts/sea-lice/
http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/common-resources/fish/fish-farming/offshore/problems/
http://www.puresalmon.org/escapes.html

Escaped farm salmon is the core of the endangered species listing for the Atlantic Salmon.  As I noted, when Angus King was governor, he maintained that all the salmon found in  the Maine rivers (the last US Atlantic Salmon runs) were interbred with farmed salmon or were in fact farm salmon, therefore listing was not appropriate.  Fish and wild life biologists disagreed, as well as friends of mine.  As much as I love salmon, unless I know the farm and how it was farmed, I will not eat it from a farm.

Here is a good starter point for people who question some of this:

http://www.alexandramorton.ca/bad-for-our-oceans/

[GburgNatsFan]

With all due respect, you sound like  a smartass when you type it.

I used that term here 2 years ago and someone laughed at me...

Being civil never goes out of style...

...and neither does capitalization when starting a sentence...   

[Mathguy]

Before you get to pompous JCA, I did quality control tests on this as a mathematician at USDA

with due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. 

[tomterp]

Before you get to pompous JCA, I did quality control tests on this as a mathematician at USDA

That's "too" pompous sir.

 

[mitlen]

That's "too" pompous sir.

 

 

[varoadking]

With all due respect, you sound like  a smartass when you type it.

Moi?  I am wounded...

[spidernat]

Maybe move this thread to the red loft?

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Before you get to pompous JCA, I did quality control tests on this as a mathematician at USDA

USDA?  Their job is different from NMFS and FW.  USDA is an industry promotion outfit and is not concerned about species impacts, nor do they concern themselves that much about conservation or eco impacts.  Even if the fish pass a fit for consumption test (and its only sampling, right?), that doesn't accoutn for the impacts of the industry.

By the way, it's not pompous. It's p.o.'d.

[HalfSmokes]

like it or not Aquaculture is the way of the future. Most fisheries are depleted or on the brink of collapse depending on who you ask so while wild caught anything tastes better and is likely healthier, expecting that to support the demand for sea food is like expecting Bison taken on the open range to supply red meat demand- it isn't happening. If you're talking about environmental impact, taking an over fished species and then throwing it on a plane to get it to market fast enough to not require freezing isn't exactly zero impact either

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

From an ecological standpoint we should all be eating insects and moss, but fresh wild-caught halibut really is the crap. 

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Not arguing against aquaculture in its entirety, but it must be done responsibly.  Catfish and trout, for example, are very clean operations, and oyster culture can filter water.   Salmon, on the other hand, has been done in an irresponisble manner for the most part.  I am not up to date on newer farms, although I think there have been some advances in terms of the environmental impact.  A good guide for fish is the Monterey Bay Aquarium's Seafood Watch guide. http://www.seafoodwatch.org/seafood-recommendations/consumer-guides


They have one for every state.  here is a link to tehb one for the Souteast US:
http://www.seafoodwatch.org/-/m/sfw/pdf/guides/mba-seafoodwatch-southeast-guide.pdf

You'll see that, among the best choices, are farmed Char, Scallops, and Rainbow Trout, and among the worst is Atlantic Salmon.

[HalfSmokes]

Not arguing against aquaculture in its entirety, but it must be done responsibly.  Catfish .... for example, are very clean operations

I can't disagree more strongly. Maybe if you can find US sourced, but most that I see usually isn't and unless things have really changed since this http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/05/AR2007070502240.html I'm not sure how much more I'm not sure I'd trust catfish more than salmon. (I'm glad rainbow trout is on the recommended list since grilled trout is my go to fish)

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I can't disagree more strongly. Maybe if you can find US sourced, but most that I see usually isn't and unless things have really changed since this http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/05/AR2007070502240.html I'm not sure how much more I'm not sure I'd trust catfish more than salmon. (I'm glad rainbow trout is on the recommended list since grilled trout is my go to fish)

Note that the Seafood Watch guide specifies US sourced catfish.  I believe US catfish farms typically are isolated and are separated off other waters.  Tanks are used sometimes.  True that China and Vietnam are undercutting US catfish farms, so again, just saying "farmed" isn't the answer, but the US catfish farmers probably can use the support of people asking for / insisting on US catfish.
http://msbusiness.com/blog/2013/02/22/catfish-farming-future-fading-on-a-a-great-american-story/

FWIW, Whole foods says its farmed fish, including salmon, are low eco-impact

[Dave B]

Thank god you guys agree about rainbow trout, cuz one thing I make well. As I was reading through thus thread. I was hoping all this crap about salmon didn't apply to trout. I was content to keep my head in the sand and not bring up the topic

[varoadking]

I don't really care for seafood...except for sashimi grade tuna, shrimp, and whatever McDonalds uses in the McFish or whatever  they call it.

[Dave B]

I realize the Maine ave fish market does not have fishermen dropping off fresh catches there in the morning, but I have never been disappointed by the stuff I get there. Basically the same stuff as eastern market at 30-40% off.

The NC shrimp at jessie Taylor don't taste like bleach or iodine. Which is pretty much my only criteria for shrimp. No complaints with rainbow trout, scallops, baby octopi either

I've stopped buying fish at Harris teeter and giant.

[tomterp]

I realize the Maine ave fish market does not have fishermen dropping off fresh catches there in the morning, but I have never been disappointed by the stuff I get there. Basically the same stuff as eastern market at 30-40% off.

The NC shrimp at jessie Taylor don't taste like bleach or iodine. Which is pretty much my only criteria for shrimp. No complaints with rainbow trout, scallops, baby octopi either

I've stopped buying fish at Harris teeter and giant.

Those ARE Eastern Shore guys for the most part running those stores, they have connections and truck things in fairly frequently.  Fishermen sell through wholesalers for the most part.

Not surprised about the prices over at Eastern Market, not that I've ever been there.  I'm more the Maine Avenue type anyway.  Keeping it real.   

[Dave B]

Those ARE Eastern Shore guys for the most part running those stores, they have connections and truck things in fairly frequently.  Fishermen sell through wholesalers for the most part.

Not surprised about the prices over at Eastern Market, not that I've ever been there.  I'm more the Maine Avenue type anyway.  Keeping it real.   

What do we from the eastern shore other than crabs and oysters? Basically what is local? Appareny we have a snakehead problem and that is superlocal. I've seen it in stores and it isn't cheap. Kinda baffling.

Eastern market is reasonable for some things compared to places like union market.

I love maine ave. The madness of it makes me happy, especially when they have music going. It might be the most local food experience in dc. There is not a frill in that place except for some neon lights

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

I got some corn on the cob at Maine Ave to go with a half bushel of crabs and the frigging ears were the size of the Hindenberg. They must be using plutonium on the crops over on the eastern shore. 

[mitlen]

I don't really care for seafood...except for sashimi grade tuna, shrimp, and whatever McDonalds uses in the McFish or whatever  they call it.

I'm with ya on this.   Missus and the boy like sushi but my fish experience goes to Mrs. Paul's fish sticks and things like shrimp, lobster and scallops.    That's about it.

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

My old man won't eat uncooked fish.  Just spent a month in Japan and wouldn't touch the sushi.  Years of cutting parasites out of fresh wild north pacific salmon cured him of the need for raw. 

[Dave B]

I'm with ya on this.   Missus and the boy like sushi but my fish experience goes to Mrs. Paul's fish sticks and things like shrimp, lobster and scallops.    That's about it.

So you guys like crap and the good stuff. Nothing in between.

Coating a rainbow trout in olive oil and salt and throwing it on the grill might be the world record holder in terms of ease*speed*deliciousness. Lemon, garlic, and parsley can be added if you feel like the extra effort. I'd rather eat that than a steak

Ceviche is also exceedingly easy. It was a leap of faith for me to eat uncooked fish prepared myself, but I've done it a bunch of times with regular ass tilapia and have never gotten sick

[mitlen]

So you guys like crap and the good stuff. Nothing in between.

Coating a rainbow trout in olive oil and salt and throwing it on the grill might be the world record holder in terms of ease*speed*deliciousness. Lemon, garlic, and parsley can be added if you feel like the extra effort. I'd rather eat that than a steak

As a kid, I'd go down behind the steel mill and "fish"  ...   mostly carp and catfish.   My grandfather used to take me to lakes, etc. to catch bass and such.    Missus does salmon, I gotta leave the house.      Just never a fish guy.