The Future of Baseball in SE Florida - The Ballpark of the Palm Beaches

[PowerBoater69]

“We’re under tight time constraints,” said Arthur N. Fuccillo, an executive vice president at Lerner Enterprises. “Could you imagine me starting this process someplace else and getting to the same end when I have to be out of a place by a certain date? I can’t do that. So let me just indicate that I’m in the bottom of the ninth, actually in the top of ninth, I thought I was winning. I’m in the ninth inning. And we have to be efficient. We owe it to you and the citizens here. We owe to our fans, our investors and the Lerner family. And speaking from the heart, I don’t know what 30 days does. I really don’t.”

Poor Art was so flummoxed by the vote he doesn't know whether he's at home or away, whether he's ahead or behind.

m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/wp/2013/07/18/nationals-talks-with-osceola-county-hits-a-snag/

[PowerBoater69]

OK, so I might be taking this a bit far, but I've been watching the video of the Osceola County Meeting from Monday:

http://www.osceola.org/meetingsportal/265-10013-0/county_meetings/MeetingDetail/3107.cfm

After a short intro from the Council, Fuccillo spoke first representing the Nats.  It was painful to watch, reminded my of a bad wedding speech by a best man who is clearly not used to public speaking.  He just read directly from his notes and while thanking a bunch of people from Osceola and introducing Mark Lerner he said absolutely nothing of interest.  The worst part was that it came off as a self congratulatory acceptance speech as he took for granted that funding was going to be approved.

Then Mark Lerner stepped up to the podium.  He also relied heavily on his notes, although he was a better speaker than Fuccillo.  He did make a few interesting comments: 1) that the Nats were dead last in MLB when they bought the team, not true; 2) that they have built the deepest farm system in MLB, true last year for a blink of the eye, not close to true today; 3) that the Nats were honest with the fans up front about their long term plan for rebuilding, my head about exploded, Kasten hyped the team every year; and 4) that the Nats are ahead of schedule in their rebuilding, ahead of schedule in their eighth year of owning the team.  Three false statements and a mystifying claim.

It turns out that he was mis-quoted in his statement about the 200% in spring training attendance, he actually claimed that Nats fans travelling to Florida is up 200%, which is plausible, but still very hard to believe based on the modest increase in total attendance.

So Mark went on and on and on about his family history, about all the great things about DC, about the youth baseball facility, meanwhile the people behind him are shifting in their seats, yawning, and staring off into space.  This was the core problem with the presentation, it was all about what they are doing in DC, not a hint of any knowledge or insight into the issues and concerns of the people he's asking to gift him $100 million.  Just completely oblivious.

The one mention of Kissimmee was prefaced by stuttering and halted statements as he said that the Lerners are "interested to find out" about opportunities for local investment "if we believe we can contribute". Caveats and weasel words.

Next came a video the Nats had prepared.  Starting with a montage of DC monuments, how is this relevant? Segueing into a bit about the great sport of baseball, which was fine.  Then a bunch of we are so great stuff about the Dream Foundation and the support for our troops.  Followed by a Natitude sequence with lots of images from last season's playoff run, which of course is a complete different atmosphere from what they are selling for a spring training venue, once again missing their target audience.  The one single mention of Kissimmee or Osceola in all of this was the final card shown for about five seconds with the Nats logo along side of the Experience Kissimmee logo.

I paused it as the rep from HKS, the architect, began to speak.  He's pretty good, able to talk in a conversant manner without reading from his notes.  I'll watch his full speech later.

So the Nats blew it.  They walked in there and demonstrated no interest whatsoever in the local area and spent their allotted time bragging about their irrelevant accomplishments up here in DC.  No concept of basic sales, assuring the mark that they have a full understanding of their problems and how the proposed solutions are the ideal resolution for their issues.  We'll see if the guy from HKS is any better.

[PowerBoater69]

The guy from HKS was really good.  In contrast to the Nats reps he repeatedly tied his presentation to how it relates to Osceola, he also described how spring training is unique from the regular season in the closeness to the action and the accessibility of the players.  He did do a short intro of his past work, showing some pictures of the site he built in Arizona that won a bunch of awards.

Then he got right to the good stuff (see the site layout):
--The ballpark is at the center of the design, which is unique. Usually the stadium is in the corner, surrounded by parking lots, so the fans go from their cars directly into the park and then back out again.  With this design the fans will park on the far side of the practice fields and walk by the players warming up.
--The 360 degree boardwalk surrounding the ballpark will have food, retail, kids zones, and baseball history displays.  It will allow fans to look out over the water, the agility field, and the practice fields.
--The agility field is the square area just south of the ballpark, this is where the players will warm up right before game time.
--The Nats MLB practice fields are the two fields to the east of the agility field, they are the ones that are surrounded by the parking lots.
--The minor league practice fields for the Nats and for an undetermined second team will be the two sets of four cloverleaf fields to the north and south of the parking lot along side of the lake.  This will allow Osceola to host tournaments using these eight fields when spring training is not in session.
--The parking lots surrounding the Nats practice fields will be available as fields for for community use when spring training is not in session.
--The parking lot by the lake will be available for residents to access the lake when spring training is not in session.

No mention of the site for the hotel right by the ballpark, but he did point out the very large amount of land set aside for retail development.

Pretty awesome stuff if it ever happens.  Although the second team is definitely an afterthought in the design as the parking lots are a long way away from their fields, they don't have an agility field, and they have a lot less total space than the Nats are setting aside for themselves.

Next up is a rep from the Kissimmee tourism board who is going to talk about the money that the project is projected to bring in.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

2 sentences. Max.

[GburgNatsFan]

Glad you're on this, PB.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

In all seriousness, thanks PB for taking the time to follow this and to keep us informed. 

In terms of Lerner's presentation, to be fair, "The Plan" was a cliche by the end of 2006.  While Kasten may have hyped the team's prospects to sell tickets (to us, or to Philly folks), it is true that from Day One they were hyping how they were building for the long term, lookign for ath-a-letes with upside, just like the Barves in the 80s.  As for the dead last in the MLB, maybe not in terms of record, but in terms of overall franchise strength taking account of depth in the minors, age and contract status of the MLB roster, scouting and front office, there were plenty of people who put them near the bottom.  Lerners are deal guys so you can expect some hyperbole.

The HKS presentation sounds like they have a vision.  They sound like they have looked at what works at other Spring develpoments.  A real question is, do they build for a 2d team on spec without a commitment knowing that those amenities are less than what the Nats are getting? 

There - I violated the MDS rule by not keeping it to 2 sentences.

[HalfSmokes]

In all seriousness, thanks PB for taking the time to follow this and to keep us informed. 

In terms of Lerner's presentation, to be fair, "The Plan" was a cliche by the end of 2006.  While Kasten may have hyped the team's prospects to sell tickets (to us, or to Philly folks), it is true that from Day One they were hyping how they were building for the long term, lookign for ath-a-letes with upside, just like the Barves in the 80s.  As for the dead last in the MLB, maybe not in terms of record, but in terms of overall franchise strength taking account of depth in the minors, age and contract status of the MLB roster, scouting and front office, there were plenty of people who put them near the bottom.  Lerners are deal guys so you can expect some hyperbole.

The HKS presentation sounds like they have a vision.  They sound like they have looked at what works at other Spring develpoments.  A real question is, do they build for a 2d team on spec without a commitment knowing that those amenities are less than what the Nats are getting? 

There - I violated the MDS rule by not keeping it to 2 sentences.

this is actually a decent amount of effort by PB

JCA- what team would sign up to be (at least from what PB wrote about the presentation), a second class citizen?

[Baseball is Life]

Glad you're on this, PB.

I think PB is on the Nats payroll. Probably a consulting gig to generate and leverage fan support for the new spring training site. But I bet the gig doesn't pay well because, you know, he says the LAC.

[Mattionals]

If the state funding difference between a two team or one team location site is really 40 Million dollars, Osceola County has to be damn sure the Nats will pack the stands full of fans for 6 weeks and will provide a REAL return on investment.  A proposed 98 Million facility with only 10 Million worth of funding vs. 50 Million dollars in funding means the ROI will be four times as long.  The stats stack against the Nats with poor turnout due bad past teams and a not ideal current ST site.

Either the facility must come down in cost, or the Nats need to kick in money which they won't do.  Why?  Because Lerners.  Can state funding be used to refurbish a park or is it only for new construction?  If the Nats get 10 Million to refurbish Osceola County stadium, then that would at the very least provide them with a "move" and they don't have to crawl back to Viera and beg forgiveness.

[PowerBoater69]

Glad you're on this, PB.

No problem, obviously I've been following this for a number of years and it's exciting to see real movement.  Almost all of the media coverage has focused on the money so I was glad to be able to hear all the design details.  So far I'm one hour into a two and a half hour meeting, I'm not sure when I'll get to the rest.

[PowerBoater69]

If the state funding difference between a two team or one team location site is really 40 Million dollars, Osceola County has to be damn sure the Nats will pack the stands full of fans for 6 weeks and will provide a REAL return on investment.  A proposed 98 Million facility with only 10 Million worth of funding vs. 50 Million dollars in funding means the ROI will be four times as long.  The stats stack against the Nats with poor turnout due bad past teams and a not ideal current ST site.

Either the facility must come down in cost, or the Nats need to kick in money which they won't do.  Why?  Because Lerners.  Can state funding be used to refurbish a park or is it only for new construction?  If the Nats get 10 Million to refurbish Osceola County stadium, then that would at the very least provide them with a "move" and they don't have to crawl back to Viera and beg forgiveness.

I believe that the state funding can be used for upgrades, which does put OCS in play, except that clearly the Nats want state of the art.  Imagine the cries from the local taxpayers if this deal goes through and the Nats average the same low attendance that the Astros had been getting.

[PowerBoater69]

The Osceola News Gazette has an editorial on the ballpark proposal. Here's the conclusion:

We hope that some plan to retain spring training here can come to fruition, but not at the expense of mortgaging the future of our still-fragile tourism industry.

They want a spring training team, they say that the Nats are an upgrade over the Astros, but that the price tag is too much.

www.aroundosceola.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14436:dont-mortgage-future-of-countys-tourism-industry-&catid=8&Itemid=90

[PowerBoater69]

I listened to 20 minutes of the Kissimmee tourism board rep, but it was very difficult to follow.  He was reading off a bunch of projected dollar figures from a slide show that was too blurry to read very easily and he was going through it pretty fast.  I'm going to try to get a copy of the slides so that I can study them a little bit.

Meanwhile the Orlando Sentinel has posted an article containing a lot of the numbers:

The proposal calls for the county to commit $98 million — and perhaps as much as $150 million if a second ball team comes aboard — toward a new baseball venue in Kissimmee.

Well that's a new number I hadn't seen.  $150 million with two teams, kind of knocks down the cost effectiveness of the extra matching funds.

The state also would kick in about $20 million during 30 years from a fund aimed at keeping Major League teams from moving spring training to Arizona.

I'm not sure where the $20 million number is coming from.  Other reports have the state contributing $10 for a single team park and $50 for two teams, with the the county paying $88 of $98 million, so once again the numbers are hard to pin down based on the news reports to date.

"We'll be a great community partner for many years to come," said Mark Lerner, principal owner of the Nationals, which would hold naming rights to the stadium and keep revenues from ticket sales, parking and concessions.

I had assumed all of this as they built Nats Park with revenue generation in mind, certainly they are planning on banking big profits from this park as well.

The Nationals would use Morris Stein of HSK Sports and Entertainment as project architect. He was honored recently for his design work on Salt River Fields at Talking Stick, the $226 million spring-training facility shared by the Arizona Diamondbacks and the Colorado Rockies. The venue in Scottsdale, Ariz., set an attendance record when it opened in 2011, but it also draws 500,000 visitors for other events, Stein said.

$226 million puts $150 million into perspective, based on that number the Nats really aren't asking for that much.  And if the park in Osceola can draw a half million visitors for non-spring training events it just might be worth the cost.

...the new complex would draw thousands of baseball fans annually from the Washington area, where seven of the nation's 10 most affluent counties are located. The report predicts that those wealthy visitors would buy the equivalent of 95,000 hotel rooms a year and add $38 million to the local economy through spending at restaurants, shops, golf courses and other attractions. 

Others are dubious about the bold economic prediction for the complex, which could host large athletic tournaments at times when the Nationals' six-week spring training isn't in session.  Commission Chairman Frank Attkisson noted that he hadn't seen fans of the last-place Astros spending hundreds of dollars at spring games.  "The primary impact was the fill-up at the 7-Eleven with a Twinkie for the ride home," he said.

He's right about that, last game I was at in Kissimmee the only money we spent in town was on 7-11 coffee for the ride home.  They're going to have to really build the place up to lure us down from Disney, otherwise we'll just drive down for the games, Gatorland alone isn't going to cut it.

As far as the wealth in the DC area, sure we've got money, but we've also got a ton of fans of other teams, they have a lot of work to do to attract the quantity of visitors that they're targeting.



http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/osceola/os-osceola-nationals-spring-training-20130721,0,6409866.story

[tomterp]

Commission Chairman Frank Attkisson noted that he hadn't seen fans of the last-place Astros spending hundreds of dollars at spring games.  "The primary impact was the fill-up at the 7-Eleven with a Twinkie for the ride home," he said.

 

Perhaps a few of them fired up the F-250 before heading over to Hooters for a while, too.

[PowerBoater69]

Steinbog linked to this thread today, he also linked to some blog that copied and pasted one of my posts. Neither bothered to mention PowerBoater69. freak them both.


http://natspennantpush.tumblr.com/post/55871371933/then-mark-lerner-stepped-up-to-the-podium-he

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2013/07/22/mark-lerner-predicts-greatness/

[PowerBoater69]

Another anti-ballpark article from the local media:

"I can't agree with them having all the control but no investment of their own on the site, or project overall," Hawkins said.

Silly locals, just lay back and enjoy all the fun times and big money the Lerners are bringing in.

A chamber analysis estimates the county's cost would be much higher than the $98 million from the tourism dollars to build the stadium.

According to the letter, Nolan is concerned the county would need to spend $29 million of its general fund dollars to prepare the site, which would delay infrastructure projects like widening Poinciana Boulevard.

"The number of traffic fatalities on that road, those are concerning," Nolan said. "We've all agreed that that needs to be widened and expanded for the safety and enjoyment of all our citizens."

If I'm a resident I've gotta ask why is it that if this proposed ballpark is going to bring in so much cash, why are we giving up all the road improvement funding?

The county manager who worked to attract the Nationals was not available for an interview.

Snake! Propose a $100 million public expenditure and then hide from the press.  Coward!

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/nationals-stadium-could-pull-29m-osceola-co-genera/nYzMJ/

[Mattionals]

Another anti-ballpark article from the local media:
Silly locals, just lay back and enjoy all the fun times and big money the Lerners are bringing in.
If I'm a resident I've gotta ask why is it that if this proposed ballpark is going to bring in so much cash, why are we giving up all the road improvement funding?
Snake! Propose a $100 million public expenditure and then hide from the press.  Coward!

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/nationals-stadium-could-pull-29m-osceola-co-genera/nYzMJ/

This is quite funny so far.  The Lerner's don't want to spend money for a new park.  No big surprise and Florida is dealing out money for new stadiums for the benefits of "tourism".  Sounds great.  Kissimmee saw that the Astros were moving out and wanted to land another team so they were in talks with the Nationals and signed a "confidentiality agreement" with SOME team apparently.  Now it becomes quite clear that the Nats want to settle in Kissimmee and it looks like Kissimmee will get the "tourism" it seeks once the Astros leave town.  Now the town decides to play hard ball?  Sure it's funny as hell to watch the Lerner's squirm here about money, but does it really have to be such a PITA?  Is this just a dumb game of chicken between Osceola County (Kissimmee) and the Nats FO?

How about the Nats go beat Peter Angelos in the mouth and break out from underneath the gigantic MASN scheme (the Make Angelos Simoleons Network) and get a deal from Comcast for market value?  If they get that 100 Million deal they keep talking about, how about using some of that money to help pay for the "luxury econobox Spring Training site of the Washington Nationals"?  There is a deal in there somewhere, and I think the Nats are dead set on moving to Kissimmee.  Will be a very interesting situation going forward.

[HalfSmokes]

This whole thread is just sad- it seems like the residents know they are getting fleeced and the pols support the fleecing

[Mattionals]

This whole thread is just sad- it seems like the residents know they are getting fleeced and the pols support the fleecing

Agreed, but will they ultimately give under the pressure of losing a team altogether?  I'm not sure how much Orlando affects the Kissimmee economy if at all.  I would guess they can't be hurting that much with Disney being so close so they would get tourists to flock to hotels, but outside of that there can't be all that much going on IN Kissimmee.

It's not a forgone conclusion that the Manatees will move WITH the Nats, and they could take up residence in any usable ballpark down there.  The Manatees could move in with any team, even moving to WPB with the Astros and Jays if that happens.  Would it also help out if the Nats maybe moved High A down to the ST site?  The Red Sox and the Nats both have Carolina League teams and at least the Sox have JetBlue that is only being used by the GCL.  The FSL could expand to have the Red Sox and Nats, one in each division, and that would bring a more "year round" appeal to the ballpark.

[PowerBoater69]

This whole thread is just sad- it seems like the residents know they are getting fleeced and the pols support the fleecing

The locals are debating the issue on this blog, very interesting comments on the post linked below and the previous post.

ksib.net/index.php/carl-cricket/2013/07/orec-saturday-party-postponed-bocc

[PowerBoater69]

Vote Yes for Osceola County to fork over $100 million to build us a nice spring training park:

http://aroundosceola.com/index.php?option=com_poll&id=124:should-the-osceola-county-commission-approve-or-reject-the-proposed-multi-million-dollar-baseball-stadium-at-its-aug-19-meeting

[TigerFan]

Vote Yes for Osceola County to fork over $100 million to build us a nice spring training park:

http://aroundosceola.com/index.php?option=com_poll&id=124:should-the-osceola-county-commission-approve-or-reject-the-proposed-multi-million-dollar-baseball-stadium-at-its-aug-19-meeting

Wow that's a lot of people rejecting it, percentage wise.  Small voting numbers but it speaks loudly to me. 

[comish4lif]

Wow that's a lot of people rejecting it, percentage wise.  Small voting numbers but it speaks loudly to me. 

How many of the 41 votes to approve are fron WNFF?

[PowerBoater69]

How many of the 41 votes to approve are fron WNFF?

I also tweeted the url so probably a good number of those are Nats fans.

[TigerFan]

One was mine.